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Subject: VT, BAE to finalise JV after MoD gives go-ahead to Navy Carriers
DragonReborn    5/20/2008 2:45:52 PM
So the Carriers still looking pretty certain then? But will we have much to fly off them once their built?? h!!p://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited/feeds/afx/2008/05/20/afx5029874.html ONDON (Thomson Financial) - VT Group Plc. and BAE Systems Plc. (other-otc: BAESF.PK - news - people ) will launch their long-awaited joint venture to combine their shipbuilding and naval support operations after the UK Ministry of Defence approved a project to build two aircraft carriers for the Royal Navy, the companies said Tuesday. The two groups said they would finalise arrangements for the venture, which has been on hold while they awaited the MoD's go-ahead for the carriers. There had been speculation that the 4 billion pound CVF carrier project, first announced last July, might fall victim to defence spending cuts. BAE and VT said they expect to sign the JV transaction documentation shortly. The agreement will then be subject to VT shareholder approval. BAE chief executive Mike Turner said: 'This is an important milestone in the development of the CVF programme and plays a major part in the long term sustainability of the UK naval sector and the transformation of our business. 'The programme will provide a strong order book and forward workload over the coming years and, most importantly will provide our armed forces with significantly enhanced capability.' In a separate statement, the MoD said it had completed all the necessary financial, commercial, and management arrangements for the project, adding that the super aircraft carriers will be the biggest and most powerful surface warships ever constructed in the United Kingdom. The new VT-BAE joint venture will be a key member of the Aircraft Carrier Alliance which will construct and assemble the new carriers at shipyards in Portsmouth, Barrow-in-Furness, Glasgow and Rosyth, said the MoD. Other members of the alliance include Bab International Group Plc. and Thales (other-otc: THLEF.PK - news - people ) UK. Bab said the contract will be worth some 600 million pounds to Bab through the duration of the programme to 2015. Thales said the contract will be worth well over 500 million euros to the group. 'We are delighted with the decision which has been taken today. We have been working on the programme since the very beginning and the design which has been processed so far is a Thales design,' said CEO Denis Ranque. VT is also awaiting a government decision on a 6 billion pound military flight training contract and last week said it and Lockheed Martin (nyse: LMT - news - people ) were expecting to reach a financial close on the project before the end of May.
 
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flamingknives       7/3/2008 1:35:19 PM
Well, the MoD has signed the contract.

Thales UK has this to say:

While the MoD has a very spiffing video
 
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interestedamateur       7/3/2008 4:26:57 PM

 The most recent edition of International Defence Review has a wide ranging article on carrier AEW.  As usual you don't know whether the UK sources are in industry, a pub in Pompey or the central capability requirements staff (who might actually know).  However, the main points re UK are:

 

1.  SK 7 ASaC has Cerebus, a completely new misison control suite and Searchwater 2000 which is 85% new.

2.  Worked well in 2003, including various other tasks, which are being developed further.

3.  Maritime Abn Surv & Con (MASC) the third element of the carrier strike capability (with CVF & JCA).

4.  Original plan was to migrate the 13 SK ASaC to 12 Merlins.

5.  MASC studies by AgustaWestland, our favourite Thales and Lockheed Martin examined options on either SK or Merlin.

6.  In 2006 another study contract to AgustaWestland, EADS, Northrop Grumman & Lockheed Martin to investigate 'enhanced rotary wing solutions'.

7.  Thales given seperate contract for risk reduction, feasibility studies and preliminary engineering development for a Lightweight High Power Active Array applicable to MASC, build of a demonstrator under consideration.

8.  Selex Galileo also examining MASC radar solutions.

9.  MASC was scheduled to replace SK 7 in 2018 but SK7 out of service date revised to 2022, with a capability sustainment program to cover the gap.

10. Thales looking to demonstrate Cerebus in Osprey to USN, which could derisk Osprey as a possible UK platform.

 

No suggestion that any form of E2 is under consideration.


Some quite interesting things in that article. The big problem with Cerberus is its lack of range compared to Hawkeye (as a system it is rated highly - MagicMushroom who is a Sentry operator and one of arsse's more sensible contributors considers it more versatile than even Hawkeye 2000). This is partly due to power and partly due to the ceiling level of the platform. I guess the active radar work being done by Thales will try to increase the power amongst other things in order to boost its range, whilst the enhanced helicopter solutions will look at pressurising cabins and fitting new rotors to increase its ceiling.
Money (or the lack of it) is indeed the main driver behind the choice.
 
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cwDeici       1/14/2011 5:08:44 AM
So there were a lot of people who were skeptical to this carrier a couple of years back.
 
To what amoung and degree have your fears been alleviated or remained or worsened?
 
Thank you.
 
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ruethan    UK carriers   1/14/2011 6:01:40 PM

BAE chief executive Mike Turner said: 'This is an important milestone in the development of the CVF programme and plays a major part in the long term sustainability of the UK naval sector and the transformation of our business.

'The programme will provide a strong order book and forward workload over the coming years and, most importantly will provide our armed forces with significantly enhanced capability.'

In a separate statement, the MoD said it had completed all the necessary financial, commercial, and management arrangements for the project, adding that the super aircraft carriers will be the biggest and most powerful surface warships ever constructed in the United Kingdom.   

The MoD is always talking about world-class and world-beating systems, right before they cancel programs or reduce the numbers. How can an aircraft carrier be powerful without any aircraft? Now there is talk of  the carriers having TWELVE  fighters .  This is for a 65,000 ton warship. The Ark Royal, recently modernized before scrapping, carried 14 Harriers.   The carriers were never anything but a jobs program for former PM George Brown's Scottish constituency.  To pay for them the RN had to reduce its fleet of destroyers and frigates, nuclear fleet subs, support ships, and other ship classes. The Cameron government has shown no wisdom in its "defense review", driven entirely by the new Chancellor's budget demands instead of defense requirements and some common sense. 
 
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JTR~~    cant really say @cwDeici   1/26/2011 3:12:15 PM

So there were a lot of people who were skeptical to this carrier a couple of years back.

 

To what amoung and degree have your fears been alleviated or remained or worsened?

 

Thank you.



The whole program quite frankly is a shambles. BAE systems are largely the one at most faults for this and many of our other procurement programs.

 

Firstly, both carriers are guaranteed, but they will be very late, so much so that once again when Britain finally builds something new thereby seemingly closing the capability gap in terms of size with our American cousins, they will have already put their new Gerald R ford class carriers to sea thus leaving us one step behind again.

 

Secondly while both carriers have got the go ahead it seems likely that only one will be in service, the other is to either be put on extended readiness/mothballed or scrapped/sold off all together. Even if the two are kept in commission it is likely if this is to be the case (which is unlikely in itself) that only the one ship will have the provision for a naval air wing. Like I said the program is a shambles, it has been done in the wrong manner. The ships are being built far too slow and will be second rate upon their launch. Build carriers worth £4 billion and then scrap one after less than 5 years of service, comic isn?t it?

 

This is once again the demonstration of how pathetic our arms procurement is.  we keep equipment  in  service for far too long, and then take ages in designing then eventually (and rather begrudgingly it may be added) paid for, then it has to be built etc. all of this is done at such a slow pace that we have designs created 10-15 years ago that are only being fielded now.

 

Eurofighter is an example, good plane but Britain goes ahead  and develops and buys a 4.5 gen  fighter at the time when most nations who want  to  make  the presence felt on the world stage are developing 5th gen planes. by the time we go 5th gen the US will be well advanced in the development of their 6th gen fighters, and this is all because  we are so slow to procure anything we are usually left with second rate equipment by the time the design is actually fielded. The UOR program is an exception to this and is pretty much the only thing the MoD has done well recently.

 

Now I say BAE systems are the bane of British defence and here is my reason. They have a monopoly on British defence. they are pretty much our only major defence contractor, as such they have bought up all the competition thereby meaning that there  is  not drive to fuel them into creating better deal etc. they know that their position as  the dominant  supplier of  arms to the MoD is secure as the government insists on buying British (which almost always  means  it will come from, or be linked to BAE systems in some way) even when  there may  be  foreign alternatives that are not necessarily better quality but they may be cheaper and be able to be produced faster and still offer the same capability at  a time when you need it not 6 years later when you have moved on. This insistence on buying British means that they will usually secure all potential deals. They then usually take long about doing it and run over budget because there is no competition to fuel them to earn the deals rather than be handed them on a silver platter. partially the British government is to blame as they are lax  with them., they do not take a hard-line  on the  timing and budgets of BAE because  they do not want to  upset  the sole defence contractor

 
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JTR~~    how true, and so sad   1/26/2011 3:35:26 PM







'The programme will provide a strong order book and forward workload over the coming years and, most importantly will provide our armed forces with significantly enhanced capability.'




In a separate statement, the MoD said it had completed all the necessary financial, commercial, and management arrangements for the project, adding that the super aircraft carriers will be the biggest and most powerful surface warships ever constructed in the United Kingdom.   




The MoD is always talking about world-class and world-beating systems, right before they cancel programs or reduce the numbers. How can an aircraft carrier be powerful without any aircraft? Now there is talk of  the carriers having TWELVE  fighters .  This is for a 65,000 ton warship. The Ark Royal, recently modernized before scrapping, carried 14 Harriers.   The carriers were never anything but a jobs program for former PM George Brown's Scottish constituency.  To pay for them the RN had to reduce its fleet of destroyers and frigates, nuclear fleet subs, support ships, and other ship classes. The Cameron government has shown no wisdom in its "defense review", driven entirely by the new Chancellor's budget demands instead of defense requirements and some common sense. 

 

You are quite right in what you say. It is very true that the MoD claims to have these world beating ambitions but yet whenever it is offered the chance to see these ambitions realised it bottles it so to speak. for example the rumoured UVX UAV/UCAV carrier program, it is being headed by BAE systems  and is based around the Type 45 hull, so it would be a safe bet to say that it will be offered to, or at least shown to the MoD so that they will be aware of it. The UVX program would give the Royal Navy a leading edge in future naval air power based around UAV systems; it would make it the world leader in this field, but would the MoD go near it? No. they would comment in what a great system it is, even acknowledge its undeniable benefits, but they would then defy all belief and state that such capability was not needed, or just turn a blind eye to it altogether thereby passing up another great opportunity. or as with the carriers, when they finally (and rarely I may add too) do actually give the go ahead for one of these world class projects that will seemingly potentially give the Royal Navy (or any other service branch in a similar situation) world beating capability they will often downgrade and undercut the original design, or specification all in the name of saving money. if they don?t cut the programs capability thereby reducing its winning edge (because i will be honest here  the US gets the credit for creating lots  of world class kit, which in my mind they well deserve but what goes unnoticed is the Britain often comes up with many revolutionary or world beating ideas  for military kit but because of the attitude of the British government and the MoD such ideas never usually make it off the drawing board. if such ideas were realised without having capability cut or downgraded or numbers  slashed during the process  the British forces would be equipped with some of the finest and most capable kit in the world today) or cut the original specified numbers outlined in the procurement plans (a good example to refer to here is the Type 45, there was an original specification for 12 such ships, this has now been cut to a mere 6, all the while knowing full well that 12 were specified for a very good reason, and 6 simply will not do the job. this can also be used to support my previous point about the capability  downgrades of British programs, as before the  Type 45 were originally designed in mind with having the latest lit installed to ensure that it was the most advanced ship in its class, with the original specification it had a definite capability advantage so much so that i would freely feel confident  in labelling it the best ship currently in service, but like i said as with many British procurement programs this capability was gradually downgraded, the ambitious de

 
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