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Subject: VT, BAE to finalise JV after MoD gives go-ahead to Navy Carriers
DragonReborn    5/20/2008 2:45:52 PM
So the Carriers still looking pretty certain then? But will we have much to fly off them once their built?? h!!p://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited/feeds/afx/2008/05/20/afx5029874.html ONDON (Thomson Financial) - VT Group Plc. and BAE Systems Plc. (other-otc: BAESF.PK - news - people ) will launch their long-awaited joint venture to combine their shipbuilding and naval support operations after the UK Ministry of Defence approved a project to build two aircraft carriers for the Royal Navy, the companies said Tuesday. The two groups said they would finalise arrangements for the venture, which has been on hold while they awaited the MoD's go-ahead for the carriers. There had been speculation that the 4 billion pound CVF carrier project, first announced last July, might fall victim to defence spending cuts. BAE and VT said they expect to sign the JV transaction documentation shortly. The agreement will then be subject to VT shareholder approval. BAE chief executive Mike Turner said: 'This is an important milestone in the development of the CVF programme and plays a major part in the long term sustainability of the UK naval sector and the transformation of our business. 'The programme will provide a strong order book and forward workload over the coming years and, most importantly will provide our armed forces with significantly enhanced capability.' In a separate statement, the MoD said it had completed all the necessary financial, commercial, and management arrangements for the project, adding that the super aircraft carriers will be the biggest and most powerful surface warships ever constructed in the United Kingdom. The new VT-BAE joint venture will be a key member of the Aircraft Carrier Alliance which will construct and assemble the new carriers at shipyards in Portsmouth, Barrow-in-Furness, Glasgow and Rosyth, said the MoD. Other members of the alliance include Bab International Group Plc. and Thales (other-otc: THLEF.PK - news - people ) UK. Bab said the contract will be worth some 600 million pounds to Bab through the duration of the programme to 2015. Thales said the contract will be worth well over 500 million euros to the group. 'We are delighted with the decision which has been taken today. We have been working on the programme since the very beginning and the design which has been processed so far is a Thales design,' said CEO Denis Ranque. VT is also awaiting a government decision on a 6 billion pound military flight training contract and last week said it and Lockheed Martin (nyse: LMT - news - people ) were expecting to reach a financial close on the project before the end of May.
 
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interestedamateur       6/18/2008 4:15:35 AM
"the refresh rate for Arabel  [SAMP/T] or EMPAR is once per second, because the FIRE CONTROL RADAR which is an AESA rotator only completes one search sweep per second. The EMPAR can only handle four engagements per bearing. Why? Beats the hell out of me why the Eurosam consortium adopted a single face rotating AESA with such a LOUSY clock match architecture and telemetry update that limits its to such a low telemetry rate control architecture. it can handle FOUR engagements per 90 degrees of coverage because of TIME refresh rates.  SAMPSON because the British made the simple astute decision to put two radars back to back so it can refresh once every thirty seconds and it ncan handle EIGHT updates per 90 degrees of aspect. From such simple engineering decisions can dumb mistakes be avoided."
 
Everyone knows that the reson for this decision was Cost. WRT Sampson I've seen BAE Systems descriptions of masts with 4 or 5 fixed antennae - but the RN couldn't afford it and thus the rotating antennae with two faces. If we Brits could only do this, imagine the position that the French and Italians were in with their smaller budgets and larger numbers of personnel.
 
I'm not qualified enough to dispute your views on Aster as a system but I feel that Standard has a couple of other advantages:
1) It's cheaper. According to this link, the Dutch four ship De Zeven Provincien class cost £200m (equiv UK value) each (www .amiinter.com/samples/neth... - even if that is an underestimate and you double it to £400m that is still less than half price of the T45 (£1 bn each) of which we can only afford 6. The DZP's are perfectly fine ships (if perhaps not as good SAM platforms as the T45's) & statistics like that make me weep!
2) The launch system is more flexible and can handle more types of missiles (ASROC, quad-pack ESSM etc)
 
I guess the disadvantages of the Standard from the UK point of view (and as someone else commented there's more to this than just engineering) are that:
1) It would make us dependent on US weapons technology in an area where Europe still has an alternative
2) We're spending the money in UK (& France) rather than the US
3) We can spin-off the technology into other applications - I believe for instance that the Aster seeker is being used in the new Meteor LRAAM.
 
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Herald12345    About Meteor.....   6/18/2008 5:13:28 AM
The British have been working HARD on the front end of that bird as well as the motor and the telemetry. Its not a MICA. I expect that A2A, Meteor, missile to work very well. The good news in that is that you will have a possible replacement for that PoS that you field in the T45s that actually is a good ATG missile. The bad news is that you still won't be able to ABM with it because the ramjet fails at altitude . For that high altitude work you need a ROCKET-which is why the Dutch and the Spaniards stayed with STANDARD and ESSM.

The Dutch frigates are nice.  Don't sell the T45s short, though.  They are fine destroyers-probably as near good as anything afloat today. [Kongos?] The T45s have state of the art radar, passive detectors and both offensive and defensive countermeasure systems that make them good AAW bodyguard ships. They will be excellent bodyguard ships once you either fix or JUNK ASTER.

Have you given any thought to this?

Norwegian SAM....

Not exactly Evolved Sea Sparrow, but you can weld the slue elevate cell launcher on the helo deckhouse  and at least have SOME decent rockets.

Herald

 
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Herald12345       6/18/2008 7:27:47 AM

Herald, a few points, if I may.

The CAMM referred to by perfectgeneral2 works with a gas piston, or something like, so there is no rocket efflux until it's a decent distance up and mostly turned over. This solves the problem of Aster getting crud all over your nice shiny warship. However ASRAAM and Aster are probably IM compliant, so if the VLS is hit by an incoming missile you only lose some (or all) of the VLS cells, you certainly don't lose the carrier as the missiles will not go into high-order detonation.  The exclusive use of VLS, especially for point defence, isn't a good idea, as you note, but I don't think that anyone was recommending that.

Down-wash from the ignited rocket plume is going to kick up FOD debris and scorcb deck no matter how far up the cold launch capsule kicks your 1/2 tonne rocket. That is BAD on a flight deck and it is lethal for jets. Also rockets have been known to FALL after failure to ignite. [KABOOM]. I don't trust SYLVER for the same reason I don't trust the Mark 41. Neither cell has been hit by a rocket that exploded inside the cell for REAL in the fully loaded magazine condition. Our own architects seem to feel that the cell launcher will certainly chain off with the loss of the ship. That is the chief reason we went with the perimeter cell launcher system for the DDX and why we are using scrape-offs and deck mounts for our smaller SAMS wherever possible now.

So why are we comparing a point-defence system with an area-defence system as an either/or choice, especially when the Carrier will mount point defence, regardless of the AAW ships?

The French mounted the ASTER on the CdG. I was  just answering Neut why you DON'T do that thing.

Out of interest, under what scenario is a simultaneous attack by four SS-N-27, let alone eight, likely?

Kilo or Song popup decoy attack [name the adversary] to mask their real torpedo attack.  Or a PRC bandit  H-6 sortie. Or the Argentinians try round two after their lessons learned.  Or equally unlikely the Iranians along the Persian Gulf coast in the Strait  could get frisky with their shore based C 802s. It isn't just the British RN who have to worry, FK.  The USN has to think about these possibilities too.

It has been raised before, that Starstreak, as an ACLOS system, could be suitable as a point defence system. The Starstreak 1 was insufficiently accurate, but the more recent Starstreak 2 might be more suitable, and possibly provide a common launcher for the new LMM. The heavyweight darts would seem to be more effective against terminal-phase super-sonic missiles than a small proximity fused warhead. Assuming that they hit.

HTK from a Starstreak has been thoroughly weapon proofed.  I do not disagree with this.  It has to stop its targets at least 300 meters from the ship to cause a splash or the burning wreckage will impact into the ship's side.  It is also a perfect candidate for a lightweight slue and elevate cell mount.  I don't like pop up missiles for carriers or base ships at all for obvious reasons. The only question I have about Starstreak is its slant range. At  7,000-10,000 meters, it might be a little tight on time unless you really rippled off a flock of them at a salvo of inbounds.

Why four or more missiles against a carrier or a destroyer? Well if you are going to be DUMB enough to attack either the RN or the USN on the high seas with a cruise missile attack which is tantamount to a declaration of war, do you want the object vessel of the attack to  survive? I sure wouldn't want to be Ahmadinejad explaining to Khameinii why I shot off two C-802s at the HMS [insert name here] only to see the British ship routinely splash the missiles and  start shooting back at anything Iranian with murder in her heart: and then have both the British and Americans follow up with air strikes that reduce
my oil facilities to smoking ruins. Having that televised worldwide-indicating total IMPOTENCE?  How long would I, Ahmadinejad,  last?

If you are going to do something that stupid and CRAZY, you are going to go in with the whole pig, not just the snout.

Herald
 
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interestedamateur       6/18/2008 7:57:14 AM

My replies in bold below.
The British have been working HARD on the front end of that bird as well as the motor and the telemetry. Its not a MICA. I expect that A2A, Meteor, missile to work very well. The good news in that is that you will have a possible replacement for that PoS that you field in the T45s that actually is a good ATG missile.
Again, it's been widely reported in the UK (particularly through Janes) that Meteor will be a world beater, with better range and seekers than even the AIM 120D's. I'm a bit surprised that you guys haven't started developing a new generation LRAAM to compete.
The bad news is that you still won't be able to ABM with it because the ramjet fails at altitude . For that high altitude work you need a ROCKET-which is why the Dutch and the Spaniards stayed with STANDARD and ESSM.
I believe that the naval ABM's the US are developing (SM6?) is going to be absolutely massive, requiring a new silo and launching system. I can't see Aster or any other forthcoming European missile development competing with this in any shape or form. I also doubt if the Sampson & long range radar combination will give enough time to track ICBM's. My guess is that the UK's strategy in this area will be to stay under the US nuclear defence umbrella. Not great for national pride I suppose, but probably pragmatic. We're going to have to be even nicer to you guys - where are you invading next 'cos we'd only be too glad to help out ? 

The Dutch frigates are nice.  Don't sell the T45s short, though.  They are fine destroyers-probably as near good as anything afloat today. [Kongos?] The T45s have state of the art radar, passive detectors and both offensive and defensive countermeasure systems that make them good AAW bodyguard ships. They will be excellent bodyguard ships once you either fix or JUNK ASTER.
Oh don't get me wrong - the T45's are indeed fine ships, or will be once we've got the finance to give them a full weapons suite. It's the old quality vs quantity argument though. The DZP's (I'd actually class them as Destroyers although the US may view this differently) are perfectly adequate for what we want though and we could have got the original 12 for what we are paying for six (assuming we could then crew and maintain them).
Have you given any thought to this?

Norwegian SAM....

Not exactly Evolved Sea Sparrow, but you can weld the slue elevate cell launcher on the helo deckhouse  and at least have SOME decent rockets.
Yes, but as a replacement for Rapier! It's interesting that the US are going to rep
 
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Wicked Chinchilla       6/18/2008 9:03:52 AM
Against fast movers I would have to agree with your assessment of the relative obselescence (spelling?...) of shoulder-fired sams.  However, they still would force an opponent to be careful to commiting down-low.  Sure, they arent the most threatening missiles in the bunch but no one really WANTS to put their plane at risk, be it against an S-400 or a stinger. 
 
Plus, shoulder-fired sams are still effective against helicopters whose importance in the modern battlefield isnt going anywhere anytime soon. 
 
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flamingknives       6/18/2008 1:15:56 PM
The VSHORAD is far from obsolete. Possibly it's less effective than it was when PGMs were less prevalent, but the current high-flying PGM delivery is somewhat reliant on a permissive environment - i.e. no enemy air force and no long-range SAM. If either are in place, there would be more need for aircraft to keep at low level, where VSHORAD would be more effective. Not that the UK couldn't do with a decent ranged SAM, but VSHORAD is effective against helicopters, UAVs and loitering munitions. Starstreak has an advantage in that it can be used against anything you can point it at, and the KE darts are fairly effective against light armour.

Starstreak is rarely used from the shoulder. The more common mount involves an automated tracking system, hence ACLOS rather than SACLOS or MCLOS. That could be fairly easily stabilised to counter any pitching.
 
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Herald12345       6/18/2008 3:28:51 PM


My replies in bold below.
Mine are in larger type.
The British have been working HARD on the front end of that bird as well as the motor and the telemetry. Its not a MICA. I expect that A2A, Meteor, missile to work very well. The good news in that is that you will have a possible replacement for that PoS that you field in the T45s that actually is a good ATG missile.
USAF munitions program. PDF....

We are working on it.

Again, it's been widely reported in the UK (particularly through Janes) that Meteor will be a world beater, with better range and seekers than even the AIM 120D's. I'm a bit surprised that you guys haven't started developing a new generation LRAAM to compete.
JDRADM
The bad news is that you still won't be able to ABM with it because the ramjet fails at altitude . For that high altitude work you need a ROCKET-which is why the Dutch and the Spaniards stayed with STANDARD and ESSM.

I believe that the naval ABM's the US are developing (SM6?) is going to be absolutely massive, requiring a new silo and launching system. I can't see Aster or any other forthcoming European missile development competing with this in any shape or form. I also doubt if the Sampson & long range radar combination will give enough time to track ICBM's. My guess is that the UK's strategy in this area will be to stay under the US nuclear defence umbrella. Not great for national pride I suppose, but probably pragmatic. We're going to have to be even nicer to you guys - where are you invading next 'cos we'd only be too glad to help out ? 
You are confusing the KEI with  the SM-6. The KEI is huge. The SM-6 is just a little longer than the current STANDARDS and should fit inside a Mark 41. Don't forget that we used such a STANDARD to splash a dud satellite recently.

The Dutch frigates are nice.  Don't sell the T45s short, though.  They are fine destroyers-probably as near good as anything afloat today. [Kongos?] The T45s have state of the art radar, passive detectors and both offensive and defensive countermeasure systems that make them good AAW bodyguard ships. They will be excellent bodyguard ships once you either fix or JUNK ASTER.

Oh don't get me wrong - the T45's are indeed fine ships, or will be once we've got the finance to give them a full weapons suite. It's the old quality vs quantity argument though. The DZP's (I'd actually class them as Destroyers although the US may view this differently) are perfectly adequate for what we want though and we could have got the original 12 for what we are paying for six (assuming we could then crew and maintain them).
Here is a another crazy idea......

SAMP/T Data....

Specifications - Aster 30 SAMP/T ? Surface-to-Air Missile Platform / Terrain, Europe


Dimensions
Length With First Stage Booster Motor 4.9m
Launch Weight 450kg
Length After Jettisoning Booster Motor 2.6m
Weight After Jettisoning Booster Motor
 
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flamingknives       6/18/2008 4:05:15 PM
Starstreak 1 would be a bit limited in terms of accuracy for engaging missiles. Starstreak 2 is apparently good for a UAV, so size-wise it ought to be good for missiles. Not sure about the speed, but head-on ought to help. One benefit is that you could launch several missiles from the same launcher in very quick succession without worrying about confusion between the missiles. Tracking different targets may be an issue, as you would need different beams and some way of getting different missiles flying down the right one. Starstreak is, however, extraordinarily fast for a missile, so flight times are less of an issue.

Range of Starstreak is about half that of SeaRAM, so equivalent to Phalanx. Smaller though. With LMM (which AFAICT uses the same launcher and guidance system) you've got a very useful secondary capability against boats.

However, if you're fitted for Phalanx you might as well get SeaRAM.
 
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Herald12345       6/18/2008 4:15:08 PM

Starstreak 1 would be a bit limited in terms of accuracy for engaging missiles. Starstreak 2 is apparently good for a UAV, so size-wise it ought to be good for missiles. Not sure about the speed, but head-on ought to help. One benefit is that you could launch several missiles from the same launcher in very quick succession without worrying about confusion between the missiles. Tracking different targets may be an issue, as you would need different beams and some way of getting different missiles flying down the right one. Starstreak is, however, extraordinarily fast for a missile, so flight times are less of an issue.

Range of Starstreak is about half that of SeaRAM, so equivalent to Phalanx. Smaller though. With LMM (which AFAICT uses the same launcher and guidance system) you've got a very useful secondary capability against boats.

However, if you're fitted for Phalanx you might as well get SeaRAM.
Code pulse the lasers. We do it with radio illuminators already.

Herald
 
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interestedamateur       6/19/2008 4:02:43 AM
I'd forgotten about the utility of VSHORAD against UAV's - I retract my comments about them. I still have my doubts about them as a useful naval SAM though.
 
Naval MEADS may indeed work well as a naval system but again I guess the problem here is political - the core design work is being done in the US, Germany and Italy. I can't see that being acceptable to MBDA in the UK.
 
The more I think about it, the more I think we should keep naval SAMs as simple as possible. Go for tried and tested systems so: SM3, ESSM, and SeaRam and you've probably got a balanced anti-air and anti-missile defence of the best weapons available at a reasonable cost.
 
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