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Subject: VT, BAE to finalise JV after MoD gives go-ahead to Navy Carriers
DragonReborn    5/20/2008 2:45:52 PM
So the Carriers still looking pretty certain then? But will we have much to fly off them once their built??

h!!p://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited/feeds/afx/2008/05/20/afx5029874.html

ONDON (Thomson Financial) - VT Group Plc. and BAE Systems Plc. (other-otc: BAESF.PK - news - people ) will launch their long-awaited joint venture to combine their shipbuilding and naval support operations after the UK Ministry of Defence approved a project to build two aircraft carriers for the Royal Navy, the companies said Tuesday.

The two groups said they would finalise arrangements for the venture, which has been on hold while they awaited the MoD's go-ahead for the carriers.

There had been speculation that the 4 billion pound CVF carrier project, first announced last July, might fall victim to defence spending cuts.

BAE and VT said they expect to sign the JV transaction documentation shortly. The agreement will then be subject to VT shareholder approval.

BAE chief executive Mike Turner said: 'This is an important milestone in the development of the CVF programme and plays a major part in the long term sustainability of the UK naval sector and the transformation of our business.

'The programme will provide a strong order book and forward workload over the coming years and, most importantly will provide our armed forces with significantly enhanced capability.'

In a separate statement, the MoD said it had completed all the necessary financial, commercial, and management arrangements for the project, adding that the super aircraft carriers will be the biggest and most powerful surface warships ever constructed in the United Kingdom.

The new VT-BAE joint venture will be a key member of the Aircraft Carrier Alliance which will construct and assemble the new carriers at shipyards in Portsmouth, Barrow-in-Furness, Glasgow and Rosyth, said the MoD.

Other members of the alliance include Bab International Group Plc. and Thales (other-otc: THLEF.PK - news - people ) UK. Bab said the contract will be worth some 600 million pounds to Bab through the duration of the programme to 2015.

Thales said the contract will be worth well over 500 million euros to the group. 'We are delighted with the decision which has been taken today. We have been working on the programme since the very beginning and the design which has been processed so far is a Thales design,' said CEO Denis Ranque.

VT is also awaiting a government decision on a 6 billion pound military flight training contract and last week said it and Lockheed Martin (nyse: LMT - news - people ) were expecting to reach a financial close on the project before the end of May.
 
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Herald12345    French Designed Carrier; British yards    5/20/2008 3:16:57 PM
Thales has its criminal mits in this disaster in the making.

You will BITTERLY regret this mistake.

Herald

 
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interestedamateur       5/20/2008 4:54:47 PM

Thales has its criminal mits in this disaster in the making.

You will BITTERLY regret this mistake.

Herald


You may well be right Herald. We're not experienced any more at constructing Carriers, and the build strategy and consortium certainly seems complex.
 
Personally I have come to the conclusion that they are over-ambitious. We don't have the aircraft, the pilots, the crew or the money to run to equip and run them properly. Until 2018 or so, they will have Harrier GR9's and goodness knows when the Sea King ASAC's will be replaced. It's all a bit third rate really.
 
I feel that we should have replaced the Invinceable's with a ship closer to the size and function of your Wasp class (or our old Hermes) with a load of say 6 fighters and 20 helicopters. That's far more realistic and affordable than the Queen Elizabeth's.  
 
Our failure in Iraq (with Afghanistan going the same way of being a mixture of small tactical successes but overall strategic failure) shows that the UK simply can't cut it any longer. Compared to the efforts you Yanks are making, we've become an irrelevent joke. I'm not sure I care too much as I never agreed with Iraq anyway, but when I hear that the Iraqi Prime Minister dislikes us because we released prisoners so the the gangs in Basra would let 4th Rifles retreat to the airport without being shot at, it kind of brings home what a shower we have become.
 
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DragonReborn       5/20/2008 5:01:46 PM
What the MOD mess up a procurement project that's never happend before what makes you think it will happen this time!!!

Herald, I don't know much about Thales specifically but I mush admit that an major procurement plan, especially one as important as this fills me with fear in terms of what we could potentially do to bulls it up!!

Didnt the Olympic games start out at £4billion and its now at £9billion??

 
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DragonReborn       5/20/2008 5:07:47 PM
What the MOD mess up a procurement project that's never happend before what makes you think it will happen this time!!!

Herald, I don't know much about Thales specifically but I mush admit that an major procurement plan, especially one as important as this fills me with fear in terms of what we could potentially do to bulls it up!!

Didnt the Olympic games start out at £4billion and its now at £9billion??

 
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DragonReborn       5/20/2008 5:11:20 PM
What the MOD mess up a procurement project that's never happend before what makes you think it will happen this time!!!

Herald, I don't know much about Thales specifically but I mush admit that an major procurement plan, especially one as important as this fills me with fear in terms of what we could potentially do to bulls it up!!

Didnt the Olympic games start out at £4billion and its now at £9billion??

 
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DragonReborn       5/20/2008 5:13:58 PM
What the MOD mess up a procurement project that's never happend before what makes you think it will happen this time!!!

Herald, I don't know much about Thales specifically but I mush admit that an major procurement plan, especially one as important as this fills me with fear in terms of what we could potentially do to bulls it up!!

Didnt the Olympic games start out at £4billion and its now at £9billion??

 
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Herald12345    Eberything we learned about the modern CTOL carrier, we learned originally from you.    5/20/2008 8:19:36 PM
Angled flight deck, mirrored landing system, catapults, arrestor gear, starboard island, elevators, and even the hurricane bow, you pioneered .
What the MOD mess up a procurement project that's never happend before what makes you think it will happen this time!!!

Herald, I don't know much about Thales specifically but I mush admit that an major procurement plan, especially one as important as this fills me with fear in terms of what we could potentially do to bulls it up!!

Didnt the Olympic games start out at £4billion and its now at £9billion??


Why didn't you look to your own past VAST native experience, or come to US for help, if you needed it?

Herald
 
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flamingknives       5/21/2008 5:22:37 PM
Why not use our own experience?
Because we sold it off.

Why not use the US?
Because some Americans - regretfully some of those in power -  are not to be trusted.

Like it or not, We've got VT as pure UK, BAEsystems as mostly UK and Thales as UK with French ownership.
They're all in it. 

Calling the Thales CVF design team French is like called the ex-United Defense engineers British.
 
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Herald12345       5/21/2008 5:35:37 PM

Why not use our own experience?
Because we sold it off.

Why not use the US?
Because some Americans - regretfully some of those in power -  are not to be trusted.

Like it or not, We've got VT as pure UK, BAEsystems as mostly UK and Thales as UK with French ownership.
They're all in it. 

Calling the Thales CVF design team French is like called the ex-United Defense engineers British.
Incompetent French engineers and political [read lawyers] project managers have their hands in the QE class, FK. I can see the fingerprint of their engineering idiocy all the way across the Atlantic.

And though Thales is now technically a holding company as much as BAE is, the CRIMINALITY that is Thales taints everything they touch, much as in LockMart [or United Defense] management and mismanagement seems to be synonymous terms these days. 

Herald
 
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flamingknives       5/21/2008 6:52:05 PM
As if Raytheon or Boeing aren't as bad.

I'm sure we could find some rubbishness anywhere if we looked hard enough.

Could have been worse though. Northrop and GD are hardly shining examples of boat building at the moment.
 
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Herald12345       5/21/2008 10:45:53 PM

As if Raytheon or Boeing aren't as bad.

Raytheon? RAYTHEON? Have you seen what' they've been doing recently? They are a shining beacon of HOPE in the wasteland of American technology.

I'm sure we could find some rubbishness anywhere if we looked hard enough.

Not as likely as you would at Thales, or if you looked at those manager losers at LockMart,  but I tend to agree.

Could have been worse though. Northrop and GD are hardly shining examples of boat building at the moment.

Too right about that.
Herald

 
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neutralizer       5/22/2008 6:11:35 AM
Actually one of the key aspects of the design is to learn from cruise ship designs in terms of habitability, cost effective 'hotel' facilties and all the things that traditional naval ship designers are not very good at.  Presumably Thales has something to offer from French cruise ship construction.  The goal here is to reduce operating costs and have a far smaller crew that US carriers. Other aspects of the design seems to have been developed by MoD dealing with expert naval architects and system engineers to ensure the task of operating a floating airfield is as efficiently as possible.  Then there's the whole construction thing of building the ships in larger chunks and assembling them.  This is actually an area where there is a lot of UK expertise, probably as much as anywhere else, it come from the mega structures of the offshore oil industry, and BAE and VT have been working together in a far smaller but similar way on T45. 
 
I'd also suggest that MoD has a heavy weight IPT in place, with talent from all over, not just defence people.  Their risk management is getting quite good, but the remaining risk area is the ability of the wider defence organisation to act sensibly when the inevitable issues emerge that need resolution.  In the end this will come down to the IPT leader and his SRO, particularly thee latter's ability to keep the wider stakeholders on track.
 
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Herald12345       5/22/2008 11:18:38 AM


Actually one of the key aspects of the design is to learn from cruise ship designs in terms of habitability, cost effective 'hotel' facilties and all the things that traditional naval ship designers are not very good at. 

Have you looked at the end-user track history of those cruise ships, friend? Fires, sinkings, and explosions.  Real good engineering expertise there. US naval standards are there FOR A REASON.

Presumably Thales has something to offer from French cruise ship construction.  The goal here is to reduce operating costs and have a far smaller crew that US carriers.

After the Chuckles de Gaulle, the Laugh-it-ups and the Forbin debacle,  how can you write that sentence with a straight face? There are goals and there are goals.  You cannot  trade off one characteristic without paying for another in a warship-usually the tradeoff is in BLOOD.


Other aspects of the design seems to have been developed by MoD dealing with expert naval architects and system engineers to ensure the task of operating a floating airfield is as efficiently as possible.

There is NOTHING the French know about aircraft carrier operations that they've invented or discovered. NOTHING. Britain's expertise is historical and may not be current. I can see numerous design mistakes in the QEs from where I sit and realize that Britain's naval architects have badly bungled the QEs design. The size of the hanger footprint and the way you've run the exhaust stacks from your engines in your carrier design are two GROSS indicators. Flight deck layout for STOVL or CTOL is a JOKE, the way you've designed the takeoff runs. You make the ship a HUGE radar target by the way the TWO islands are sited, etc.  And that is just the obvious design gaffes. I hate to see what the pitch roll on that top-heavy design looks like.

 Then there's the whole construction thing of building the ships in larger chunks and assembling them.  This is actually an area where there is a lot of UK expertise, probably as much as anywhere else, it come from the mega structures of the offshore oil industry, and BAE and VT have been working together in a far smaller but similar way on T45. 

 Big deal. Visit Pusan or Newport News, or  Kobe.

I'd also suggest that MoD has a heavy weight IPT in place, with talent from all over, not just defence people.  Their risk management is getting quite good, but the remaining risk area is the ability of the wider defence organisation to act sensibly when the inevitable issues emerge that need resolution.  In the end this will come down to the IPT leader and his SRO, particularly thee latter's ability to keep the wider stakeholders on track.

In simple English, you suffer from the same problems we do, your MoD equivalent to out PEO, has its collective head up its collective ass.  And you actually believe those folks when they tell you they know what they are doing.

All the more remarkable, since the Daring [EXAMPLE] is such an outstanding AAW escort, armed with the WORST naval SAM ever fielded and THEY let that mistake happen.


Herald

 
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neutralizer       5/23/2008 1:09:46 AM
It appears that CVF is being designed for a crew of some 1450, this seems fairly small for a ship of this size and function, I think this is about 1/3 the USN's size for ships that are neither 3 times the displacement nor 3 times the size of airgroup.  On of the ways of achieving this is by learning from cruise ship practice in minimising crewing requirements for operating the ship and efficient habitability (and for the underinformed MoD stated this a year or so back, so they clearly think they're onto something).  
 
It also seems that Thales is responsible is for the design of the ships' air operations, not the ship per se, although air ops are clearly the key issue.  It's interesting that it's expressed in these terms.  Somewhere I've seen something about the daily sortie rate required, but can't remember the numbers and have no idea how this compares with USN practice or whether its 3 times the CVF sortie rate.  Clearly efficient use of man(& woman) power is an issue here as well.
 
Navies are often very conservative organisations.  However, UK is making increasing use of commercial type standards for some aspects of their larger warships (eg Ocean) and seems to be concluding that this is value for money and does not compromise their naval role.
 
Perhaps CVF is causing panic in some quarters. after all if UK with no expertise can do it just imagine what those fiendishly cunning Chinese will come up with :-)
 
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prometheus       5/23/2008 5:22:57 AM



Thales has its criminal mits in this disaster in the making.

You will BITTERLY regret this mistake.

Herald



You may well be right Herald. We're not experienced any more at constructing Carriers, and the build strategy and consortium certainly seems complex.

 

Personally I have come to the conclusion that they are over-ambitious. We don't have the aircraft, the pilots, the crew or the money to run to equip and run them properly. Until 2018 or so, they will have Harrier GR9's and goodness knows when the Sea King ASAC's will be replaced. It's all a bit third rate really.

 

I feel that we should have replaced the Invinceable's with a ship closer to the size and function of your Wasp class (or our old Hermes) with a load of say 6 fighters and 20 helicopters. That's far more realistic and affordable than the Queen Elizabeth's.  

 

Our failure in Iraq (with Afghanistan going the same way of being a mixture of small tactical successes but overall strategic failure) shows that the UK simply can't cut it any longer. Compared to the efforts you Yanks are making, we've become an irrelevent joke. I'm not sure I care too much as I never agreed with Iraq anyway, but when I hear that the Iraqi Prime Minister dislikes us because we released prisoners so the the gangs in Basra would let 4th Rifles retreat to the airport without being shot at, it kind of brings home what a shower we have become.


The type of carrier you propose offers no more capability than the current invincibles, which, while having shown sterling service, are extremely limited in terms of it's flexibility, the air wing you propose is worse than useless, those six fighters could neither defend the ship, let alone a task force, nor allow for any decent strike force.
There is nothing overly ambitious about the QEs, they are the right kind of carrier we should have been building since the Ark royal was scrapped in 78. The availability of the airwing is now in the hands of LM/BAE/NG to get aircraft into producton for 2014. While the FAA does currently have problems with keeping pilots, the RAF does not, the basic experience required to operate STOVL aircraft is still there and the naval air wings can be rebuilt as the F-35 comes into production, even if it means operating a mostly RAF air wing for a while. 
 
As for the Iraq/Afghanistan thing, the British are still in there, while the UK and US may disagree on a lot of things in Iraq, it's still worth noting that the Iraqi army that fought in Basra recently was trained by the British and supported by both British and US artillery/air support, not such an inconsequential role to have played. Afghanistan is far from finished, it is not just the role of the British, those forces are performing well on the ground by all accounts - if NATO fails in south asia it will be the fault of all, not just the British.
 
Hardly a shower yet.
 
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