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Subject: Was There Such A Thing As A Possible Winning Strategy For The South?
CJH    4/21/2007 2:18:06 PM
I believe the War Between the States was decided in the West and not the East where it was indecisive. Lee was an able defensive general but was unable to make the transition to an effective offensive strategist in his two forays north of the Potomac. He could have turned the tables on the Army of the Potomac in Pennsylvania but his ethical mores were adverse to this. I believe the Confederacy could have prevailed in the West had it fashioned an army designed for mobility and maneuver and employed scorched earth methods in the Midwest. However, in Lee's case in Pennsylvania he could have drawn Meade out of his defensive positions at Gettysburg. I remember reading about one of Rome's early wars with a neighboring city-state. Rome's enemy's army holed itself up in the walled city to avoid a battle. Seeing this, the Roman consul set fire to the crops in the farm land which supported the city. This apparently forced the erstwhile beseiged enemy army to risk an engagement which it lost. Scipio Africanus forced the Carthaginians to concede that he had control of their territory when he laid waste to their breadbasket crop lands. Lee, had he been willing, could have laid waste to the Pennsylvania countryside, casting Meade into the state of psychological dislocation born of being forced to act precipitously by newspapers, politicians to say nothing of a sense of honor. But I am sure that Lee would say that while that may have been true, a Southern victory would not have been worth being guilty of the commission of such an offense against God and humanity. If Jackson had been alive and was in Lee's shoes at Gettysbug, I wonder what he would have done.
 
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CJH       12/24/2007 2:24:53 PM

"I was describing a conventional war in which Southern armies would enter the North to lay waste to its economy by scorched earth tactics and to spur the migration of masses of refugees within the North. That is, to do what Sherman did in his march to the sea."

Difficult, and unecessary.  Its only necessary for the Confederates gain a couple of large victorys, and/or cause the Federal government to flee Washington to weaken the support forthe Republican government.  A broad swath of destruction across the countryside or burning a city like Philidelphia would rally as many people to the Federalist cause as it would drive others to a anti war stance. 
Isn't that essentially what the South's actual strategy was? Your argument is very persuasive but I've formed the opinion that such half measures seem always to result in failure.
Turn the tables for a moment and consider what it took for the North to defeat the South.

 
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Photon       12/25/2007 6:20:39 PM



The South resorting to a massive guerilla war against the North?  Sounds like a good idea at first, but the South will have to pay a hefty price.  Since a war with guerillas can easily be interpreted by the conventional side as a war with rebels and terrorists, if I were the North, I would treat the South as a terrorist sympathizers and their civil population do not deserve to be treated fairly.  The South will face much more humiliation and destruction if they go guerilla ...


Your answer is the logical one. However, it is quite possible that Reconstruction Era Southerners would have said that this is how they had been actually treated anyway.

But I was not describing an asymmetrical war. I was describing a conventional war in which Southern armies would enter the North to lay waste to its economy by scorched earth tactics and to spur the migration of masses of refugees within the North. That is, to do what Sherman did in his march to the sea.


I think the South doing 'scorched earth' into the North would still not bring any better results to the South.  The most they could probably do is to attack bordering Northern states, but not much more beyond that.  Not to mention that even wish such a tactic, that is not going to seriously dent the Northern economy.  Would the Northern population become intimidated by the Southern 'scorched earth'?  The exact opposite would have nappened:  The North would become enraged and prosecute the war more brutally upon the South.  If the war turned that ugly, I would not mind wiping out the South and even entertaining the though to of genocide.
 
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CJH       12/31/2007 3:06:13 PM
One other point I guess is that this strategy might adversely affect the moral of the army used to undertake it.
 
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NapoleonVIII       6/23/2009 10:45:34 AM
Lee was an offensive General not a defensive. The defensive campaign had barely been thought of and that was by General James Longstreet, who was at Gettysburg Lee's "Old War Horse". Lee was suffering from the heart desease that would kill him in 1870 and his judgement sufferred. In the second day of the battle, the Union was dug in in a fish hook along the hills. Lee refused to withdraw and conduct a defensive campaign elsewhere when Longstreet advised it same as on the third day when Pickett's charge was conducted. The battle of Gettysburg and ultimately the war was lost on those three days by General Lee, General Stuart, and General Ewell who was new to his command and proved indecisive in battle. Longstreet was opposed to the disastrous battle of Little Round Top and had advised to go behind the Union Line. General Stuart screwed his own army over by not acting as the "eyes" of the Confederate army; therefore Lee was cautious of attacking from the right of the Union line which would have been behind the line and won the war.
 
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NapoleonVIII       6/23/2009 10:50:57 AM
Jefferson Davis and the Confederate Congress had a letter prepared offering peace the day the Army of the Potomac was destroyed. If Lee had succeeded at Gettysburg as he should have had it not been for the careless mistakes of General Ewell and General Stuart, D.C. would have been open to Southern invasion. The end of the Civil War.
 
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NapoleonVIII       6/23/2009 10:54:44 AM
Lee was the most beloved General in American history. D*mn Congress for not pardoning him. As a southerner I wish to say that never did such a splendid General stand on American soil.
 
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Herald12345    Lee was a traitor.    6/24/2009 5:31:28 AM

Lee was the most beloved General in American history. D*mn Congress for not pardoning him. As a southerner I wish to say that never did such a splendid General stand on American soil.

He swore an oath to the United States Constitution and broke it.
 
Whether he was beloved by the soldiers who served under him is not relevant. Grant was equally beloved as was SHERMAN.
 
You are also wrong about Gettysburg. Lee's army had no transport to pace the Army of the Potomac if he tried to go around it. Meade had already proved he could outmarch the ANV. How was Lee supposed to get around the Union left again with no cavalry and get through that terrain whoich was WOODS in those dayts? How was he supposed to get around Sugar Loaf the dominant hill terrain feature on the Union right? I would loive to see how that was possible. Part of the reason Lee didn;t try was because he was a BETTER general than the overrated Longstreet and understood just how infantry  march rates and interior lines worked.
 
He also didn't have good maps of the country. To remund you about Linciln who chose Meade; he said somethingf to the effect that "this beetle would fight well to defend his own dung heap" : that is Meade kinew the ground and Lee didn't.  
 
There are good reasons why men do what they do. Lee had his very good reasons for his center attack. He could not exceed his tactical radius of baggage train supplied movement or his topological knowledge. He could also not risk a converging column attack when he almost had the left of his army shattered by Sickle's lunatic movement into the Wheatfield.
 
Are you seriiously trying to tell me that after that debacle and the follow up mess Longstreet made of Devil's Den and Little Round Top, that Lee was in a mood to listen to Old Pete?  
 
 
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CJH       7/2/2009 7:27:29 PM
This is where I fall behind.
I have no understanding of considerations such as logistics as they applied to Lee's and Meade's armies.
Lee seemed to have felt constrained to fight at Gettysburg rather than to fight a campaign relying on mobility and manuver.
For instance, I do not understand why he could not simply cut loose from his supply bases and move farther north trying to lure the AOTP into a disadvantageous situation. Sherman cut loose from his supply lines.
 
Why could not Lee manuver so as to keep the federals guessing whether his object was Washington, Baltimore or Philadelphia (or maybe New York)?
 
Also, how and where did Meade prove he could out manuver the ANV? Was Lee under a conviction that he was at a disadvantage with respect to mobility?
 
Of course after watching the movie one is left having to either conclude that Lee was an idiot or that he took a calculated risk perhaps based on a conviction that he must either seek victory at that moment no matter the circumstances or resign his cause to an eventual and certain defeat.
 
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BasinBictory       7/4/2009 3:30:07 AM
IIRC, from the various descriptions I've read about Pickett's Charge, Lee felt like this would be his last best chance at breaking the Union lines, and routing the AOTP. The Confederates preceded the Charge with a huge artillery bombardment which both obscured any attempts at direct observation of the Union lines as well as gave the Confederates the confidence that they would be advancing against a Union line that would be broken and shattered beyond the ability to effectively defend it - heights or no heights.
 
Of course, they found out what the British found out at the Somme, that artillery doesn't always solve all problems.
 
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CJH       7/13/2009 9:22:00 PM
Ah well! I still cling to my pet delusion - the creation of an army on horseback, under the command, perhaps, of Bedford Forrest, for operations in the territory between the Rockies and the Mississippi.
 
Of course, in order to frustrate Union attempts to control the Mississippi River and thus cut the army's lines of communications, the Rebs develop, carry and deploy naval mines when and where practicable.
 
The army's mission would be to radicalize the plains Indians against the prospect of a Union victory, mine navigable rivers, suppress all overland federal communications with the western states, conduct raids east of the Mississippi, give the North's newspapers plenty to complain about, divert federal forces from Virginia and to generally outrun stronger forces while destroying weaker ones.
 
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