The Strategypage is a comprehensive summary of military news and affairs.
 News As History - November 25, 2009




New Strategy - Wargames at Discount Prices
1.Modern Air Power: War Over the Middle East
2.Commander: Napoleon at War
3.Close Combat: Watch am Rhein
4.Gallic Wars
5.Fast Action Battle: The Bulge

100+ Computer and Board games all with free shipping.
 
 
 
Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use
How to Behave on an Internet Forum
US Civil War - Eastern Theater Discussion Board
Sign In   Return to Topic Page
Subject: Who was the more able general - Nathan Bedford Forest or R.E. Lee?
CJH    9/2/2005 6:00:21 PM
I think I remember reading a book on Forest which claimed that R.E. Lee had named Forest as the best Confederate general. Was Forest the best?
 
Quote    Reply

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title     Sort in Reverse Order Posted

S-2    RE:Who was the more able general - Nathan Bedford Forest or R.E. Lee?   1/9/2006 12:47:34 PM
Gosh, I thought that the south had a number of really able commanders. Seems ol' NBF really didn't command at the level of some of the others, who'd receive more accolades from me, such as Jim Longstreet and Jackson. If anybody could top Jackson in the Shenandoah or at Chancellorsville, I'd be amazed. Two others that come to mind are Joe and Sidney Johnson, IIRC. This is actually an interesting thread. It's too bad that there's so little interest in the civil war. I can't imagine why. Seems we could have an entire board devoted solely to Gettysburg, much less all the other really amazing battles. Imagine how between Sept. 1862 and early July, 1863 battles were fought at Antietam, Fredericksburg, Chancellorville, and Gettysburg/Vicksburg. My guess, without checking, that KIA/WIA from both sides in those five battles/campaign (really, Vicksburg was a campaign unto itself) would exceed 350,000-400,000, maybe more. Oh well, just not current enough for most people's interest.
 
Quote    Reply

AlbanyRifles    RE:Who was the more able general - Nathan Bedford Forest or R.E. Lee?   1/9/2006 1:55:19 PM
You are comparing apples and bananas. Lee was a theater/army commander who had to command an entire theater of war which included a great deal of military administration as well as numeroud reorganization of his army due to casualties int he senior leadership. Forrest was a cavalry commander who commanded at brigade, divisioan and corps. He operated independently on occasion or at the direction of an army commander. Nowhere near the responsibilities of Lee. I'll respond on that 9 month period in a sepaarate posting
 
Quote    Reply

AlbanyRifles    RE:Who was the more able general - Nathan Bedford Forest or R.E. Lee?   1/9/2006 2:44:03 PM
S2, Looking at that window here are the battles I came up with Antietam MD SEP 16-17 UNION KIA/WIA/MIA 2108/9549/753 CONFED KIA/WIA/MIA 3,500/16,399/6,000 Iuka MS SEP 19 UNION KIA/WIA/MIA 141/613/36 CONFED KIA/WIA/MIA 86/408/199 Perryville, KY OCT 8 UNION KIA/WIA/MIA 845/2851/515 CONFED KIA/WIA/MIA 510/2635/251 Fredericksburg, VA DEC 11 UNION KIA/WIA/MIA 1284/9600/1769 CONFED KIA/WIA/MIA 596/4068/651 Stones River, TN DEC 31-2JAN63 UNION KIA/WIA/MIA 1730/7802/3717 CONFED KIA/WIA/MIA 1294/7945/1027 Chancellorsville, VA MAY 1-4 UNION KIA/WIA/MIA 1606/9762/5919 CONFED KIA/WIA/MIA 1665/9081/2018 Vicksburg, MS MAR 29 - 4 JUL UNION KIA/WIA/MIA 1606/9762/5919 CONFED KIA/WIA/MIA 1413/3878/33196 Gettysburg, PA JULY 1-3 UNION KIA/WIA/MIA 3063/14492/5435 CONFED KIA/WIA/MIA 2592/12706/5150 Total UNION 12358/62233/19151 Total Casualties 93,742 Total CONFED 11656/57120/48492 Total Casualties 117,268 However, 1864 was much worse. In the 40 days of the Overland Campaign in May June 1864 Union Casualites were over 66,000 and Confederate Casualties were almost 30,000.
 
Quote    Reply

S-2    RE:Who was the more able general - Nathan Bedford Forest or R.E. Lee?/Albany Rifles Response   1/9/2006 3:45:41 PM
Thanks for the casualty clarification. It would appear my guess missed the mark by a considerable margin. 1864 really doesn't surprise me. As I recall, that summer both Cold Harbor and Spotsylvania Courthouse (the bloody angle) popped up. IIRC, those two battles FOLLOWED Grant's emergence from the wilderness. IIRC, Bruce Catton labeled that portion, "If It Takes All Summer", an apt phrase which truly catches the gist of Grant. I didn't mean to suggest that Antietam, Fredericksburg, Chancellorsville, Gettysburg/Vicksburg were the only fights which occurred over that nine month period. Still, even with the additional battles which you've included, the numbers were much lower than I'd suspected. Imagine, only 211,000, instead of the 350-400,000 which I suggested. Try passing those numbers through Congress these days! Remarkable days, and amazing men. Not the generals-the troops. To fight at two hundred meters or less, often finishing with cold steel at the end of a rifle barrel is unimaginable to most today. The Bloody Angle, as I recall, was fought literally toe to toe across a dividing breastwork with regiments being fed in from both sides while the bodies literally stacked up amidst the breastworks...cannons firing grape/canister point-blank until seized/crews killed. I stand in respectful awe of those men, and their devotion to one another, because I can imagine nothing else that would compel men into those infernos of fire and steel other than their will to stand tall and be counted by their peers.
 
Quote    Reply

AlbanyRifles    S2   1/10/2006 1:32:41 PM
Sorry if I came across as trying to correct your post......wasn't my intent. Wanted to make sure Stone's River made it into the mix....one tough battle which made Sheridan and saw the rise of some great brigade comamnders in the Army of the Cumberland. If you want to read some amazing stories of the Overland Campaign, read Gordon Rhea's spectacular series on those battles. My personal favorite is the assult of the Mule Shoe on 10 May 64 by 12 picked VI Corps regiemnts under Emory Upton. (The 43rd NYVI-The Albany Rifles- was one of the 12 regiments) The assualt column broke the Confederate line. Artillery fire stopped the support column of Mott's Division from the II Corps (Han's). This same formation was used by Grant on 12 May sending in the II Corps with the VI & IX Corps in support. I will ALWAYS be glad to discuss the Civil War.
 
Quote    Reply

longrifle    Respectful awe   1/16/2006 12:20:08 AM
>>I stand in respectful awe of those men, and their devotion to one another, because I can imagine nothing else that would compel men into those infernos of fire and steel other than their will to stand tall and be counted by their peers.<< "It might seem odd in these modern times, but the Confederate soldier fought because, on the one hand, in his view he was provoked, intimidated, and ultimately invaded, and, on the other, his leaders had convinced him that this was a war for independence in the same sense as the Revolutionary War." - James Webb I think that sums it up rather nicely. I'm not saying that it was right, or wrong for that matter; but I agree with Webb, that that's the way it was. At least for one side, and at least as their initial motivation. But you are right in one sense S-2. When the lead starts flying the initial motivations are easily forgotten and then it's all about the man on either side of you.
 
Quote    Reply

vietasianfox45       6/4/2007 5:28:51 AM

You are comparing apples and bananas.

Lee was a theater/army commander who had to command an entire theater of war which included a great deal of military administration as well as numeroud reorganization of his army due to casualties int he senior leadership.

Forrest was a cavalry commander who commanded at brigade, divisioan and corps. He operated independently on occasion or at the direction of an army commander. Nowhere near the responsibilities of Lee.

I'll respond on that 9 month period in a sepaarate posting
You are totally correct. If I had to rank the top three Southern generals, I would say Robert E. Lee, Joseph E. Johnston, and Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson.
 
Quote    Reply

PowerPointRanger    Best Southern Generals   9/11/2007 8:17:48 PM
1) James Longstreet--Never lost a defensive position throughout the war and fought in virtually every major battle in the East.  He also understood before any of his peers how changes in technology required changes in tactics.  His new tactics were a virtual blueprint for the trench warfare of WWI (50 years early).  Eclipsed by more aggressive generals like Lee and Jackson, he came to forefront late in the war.  His defense of Richmond was so good that Grant almost lost his job over the heavy casualties.
 
2) Albert S. Johnston--Considered the best Southern general prior to the war, he was also the highest ranking Southern General.  Although he only fought in one battle (Shiloh) before he was killed, his performance there spoke volumes.  Prior to his death, Confederate troops surprised Northern troops and nearly routed them.  These were not your typical Union political appointees and raw recruits.  Among the retreating Union generals were both Grant and Sherman.  Their troops had been battle-tested at Fort Donaldson.  After Johnston's death, his second in command, P.G.T. Beauregard halted the Southern pursuit of the fleeing Northern troops, allowing them to reinforce and reorganize overnight. The Union reversed the outcome of the battle on the following day.
 
3) Joseph E. Johnston--Often not appreciated because of his Fabian approach to battle.  He was known for avoiding battle before superior Union forces (as he did during the Peninsular & Atlanta Campaigns).  When he did choose to fight, he proved capable.  He fought McClellan to a draw in the Battle of Seven Pines, at a substantially lower cost to his army than Lee, who took over when Johnston was wounded.  He defeated Sherman at the Battle of Kennesaw Mountain, although outnumbered 2-1.  He was the highest ranking officer to join the Confederacy.
 
4) Nathan B Forrest--His use of mobility and guerilla tactics are still studied today.  His ties to the KKK have soured many on his reputation, but his battlefield methods were effective.
 
5) Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson--his use of mobility to defeat a divided enemy force during the Valley Campaign is still studied today.  Although widely considered the best Confederate General, I've rated him lower because of his over-agressive attacks often were counter-productive and resulted in heavy casualties to his own troops.  While their is something to be said for an aggressive attack, his victories could be pyrrhic (Mechanicsville & Malvern Hill).
 
I have not included Robert E Lee on this list for a reason.  While his leadership was clearly without peer, his generalship was (like Jackson's) dated, overly aggressive, and often pyrrhic (Gettysberg, Seven Days).
 
Quote    Reply

CJH       9/22/2007 9:31:40 PM
I believe that Joe Johnson's greatest liability was that President Davis seemed to have no use for him.
 
Quote    Reply

Ozymandias    Best Southern General?   9/23/2007 3:45:43 PM

I believe that Joe Johnson's greatest liability was that President Davis seemed to have no use for him.


Joe Johnston's greatest liability was that he would not fight. A Southern general who did not fight before Richmond would have let McClellan start a formal seige - and McC would have won. He did magnificently maneuver himself out of Atlanta in time for the 64 election.
Longstreet was magnificent apart from his defensive abilities he was the guy that launched the attacks that smashed two union armies (2nd Bull Run and Chickamauga) and damn near a third - ?Spotsylvania (first of the Wilderness battles)
AS Johnson. I have never been sure about. Everyone thought he was good, and he had a bad hand to play in the west. Did not do it that well (but it was a very bad hand). First day at Shiloh was a mess and Grant and Sherman had things pretty much under control - see Bloody April for a minute by minute account. But most of the good civil war generals badly screwed up their first large command and he did not live show he had learned.
 
What about Dick Taylor - good division commander in the east and did a very good job in La/Miss later in the war.
 
Kirby Smith - his part in the invasion of Kentucky was well done and he was the 4/5th ranking Confederate Lt Gen.
 
 
Quote    Reply

floridacracker    Foote   9/25/2007 4:31:04 PM
Shelby Foote said their were two geniuses involved in the War. On the Southern side - Nathan Bedford Forrest. On the Northern - Abraham Lincoln.
 
Quote    Reply

PowerPointRanger    The Geniuses of War   10/9/2007 6:30:33 PM
The Geniuses of war often go unrecognized (probably because of the  natual distaste for the brutality that goes with war).
 
I must disagree with the notion that there were ONLY two in that war.  The truth is that you have to be smart to succeed in war, because the stupid tend to get weeded out in a hurry.
 
 
Quote    Reply



StrategyWorld.com© 1998 - 2009StrategyWorld.com. All rights Reserved. StrategyWorld.com, StrategyPage.com, FYEO, For Your Eyes Only and Al Nofi's CIC are all trademarks of StrategyWorld.com Privacy Policy