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Subject: Germany keeps its Monarchy War?
DaemonAngel    9/25/2009 7:24:29 PM
Would a hereditary monarchy (but with Wilhelm II's abdication) have made things just a little more difficult for tyrants like Hitter from become a head of state? In other words, could a path to democracy been a little more certain had a constitutional monarchy been maintained in Germany after WWI? After all many Germans saw the Wiemar Republic as a collection of corrupt puppets and thus damaged democracy's chances. Could something more stabilizing and familiar have made true democracy more likely? Although Mussolini became dictator despite the monarchy, in the long run it help ensure continuity as Italy change sides and El Douche was assassinated.
 
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Nasty German Idiot       2/19/2010 9:11:54 AM
Monarchy was finished after 1918, with a majority of Germans opposing it the chances for a revival were minimal all the time.  The "Kapp-Putsch" shows this quite well.  [XXXttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapp_Putsch] 
 
What made the Weimar Republic fail was mainly the economy.  Even the Nazis did only play a major role in the last years of the first German Republic.  Additionally as already mentioned, there was only about a third of political parties aiming at the stabilisation of Democracy, while the left and right were busy at destabilising the system.  The right in favor of Monarchy, the Communists and parts of the Social Democracy for Communist Revolution or a "Räterepublik"  - Soviet Republic with "worker - peasant - soldier" commitees running the state.
 
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CJH       6/27/2010 6:16:05 PM

Monarchy was finished after 1918, with a majority of Germans opposing it the chances for a revival were minimal all the time.  The "Kapp-Putsch" shows this quite well.  [XXXttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapp_Putsch] 

 

What made the Weimar Republic fail was mainly the economy.  Even the Nazis did only play a major role in the last years of the first German Republic.  Additionally as already mentioned, there was only about a third of political parties aiming at the stabilisation of Democracy, while the left and right were busy at destabilising the system.  The right in favor of Monarchy, the Communists and parts of the Social Democracy for Communist Revolution or a "Räterepublik"  - Soviet Republic with "worker - peasant - soldier" commitees running the state.


I have read Konrad Heiden's "Der Fuhrer". Heiden was a master story teller which made the book a fascinating one.
It has been a while since I read it but I came away from the book's depiction of the way Hitler became chancellor with the impression that it was the weakness of the parliamentary system when a coalition government becomes necessary that doomed the Weimar Republic. This, of course, being in the context of a serious competition between multiple parties which are distinguished by wanting to overturn the republic.
 
 
 
 
 
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CJH       6/27/2010 6:22:12 PM
Even though the Kaiser had turned the people pretty much against the monarchy, a constitutional monarchy may have saved them a lot of sorrow.
 
A royal family with a good reputation and representing the best of German culture and tradition - the soul of the German people so to speak may have been a steadying influence.
 
It is beginning to look as though we could use something like that here and now.
 
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Nasty German Idiot       7/27/2010 10:23:03 AM
I think you have a point,  especially since the old and sick Hindenburg who served as a "replacement Kaiser"  (with all military and political power resting in his hands in case of emergency - and the Weimar Republic was a constant crisis-area) failed in keeping the state together. 
 
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Photon       7/27/2010 3:31:41 PM
The continuation of German monarchy after WW1 would not have mattered much, insofar as the rise of Nazism is concerned.  We have to delve into the minds of the German elites at that time.  Aristocrats, military caste, and industrialists all had one trait in common:  Contempt for the Weimar Republic and the Social Democrats.  The fact that the Social Democrats did not side with the Communists (and instead supported in crushing the latter) did not count in the minds of these three elitist groups.  Another farce was the way the armistice was signed.  The Social Democrats were the ones most opposed to the humiliation of signing the armistice; by contrast, the military caste was the most eager.  Finally, in the second half of WW1, the German monarch turned into nothing more than a rubber-stamp as a cynical duo of Ludendorff and Hindenburg were actually in charge.  In other words, they have already set a precedent in which the monarch was a nonentity.  Replace Ludendorff & Hindenburg with Hitler -- would a 'Bohemian corporal' like Hitler show the same degree of respect towards the monarch like these two generals did?  Highly doubtful.
 
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CJH       8/22/2010 7:02:41 PM

The continuation of German monarchy after WW1 would not have mattered much, insofar as the rise of Nazism is concerned.  We have to delve into the minds of the German elites at that time.  Aristocrats, military caste, and industrialists all had one trait in common:  Contempt for the Weimar Republic and the Social Democrats.  The fact that the Social Democrats did not side with the Communists (and instead supported in crushing the latter) did not count in the minds of these three elitist groups.  Another farce was the way the armistice was signed.  The Social Democrats were the ones most opposed to the humiliation of signing the armistice; by contrast, the military caste was the most eager.  Finally, in the second half of WW1, the German monarch turned into nothing more than a rubber-stamp as a cynical duo of Ludendorff and Hindenburg were actually in charge.  In other words, they have already set a precedent in which the monarch was a nonentity.  Replace Ludendorff & Hindenburg with Hitler -- would a 'Bohemian corporal' like Hitler show the same degree of respect towards the monarch like these two generals did?  Highly doubtful.


Gee. This sounds so discouraging.
But given that Germany had a popularly elected parliamentary body and given that any overnent would need the good will of the people under the Weimar constitution, would not a monarch as head of state, such as in Britain, have resulted in a more stable political party situation?
 
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Photon       8/23/2010 7:20:34 PM
Bear in mind that Germany became the second biggest political hot-bed after Russia in 1918.  You have to be pretty lucky to see the monarch even keep its own undies!  Historically speaking, what happens once a country is rocked by a a severe political crisis?  Louis XIV and Marie-Antoinette literally lost their heads during the French Revolution, while Tsar Nicolas II & royal family were literally hosed down by nervous and trigger-happy Bolsheviks during the Russian Revolution.  Furthermore, in these two revolutions, there were alternative ideologies against their respective monarchs.  (French republicanism and Bolshevism both required no monarch as a source of unity nor as a source of legitimacy.)  The Brits, by contrast, avoided the extremes, since Wars of the Roses and the era of Oliver Cromwell took place well before the rise of anti-aristocratic ideologies of 19th-20th centuries.  (Who knows, if Oliver Cromwell were to do his thingies in 1917, he might have been able to completely wipe out the crown and the aristocrats, then set up a dictatorship!)  I think Germany could have followed the British outcome, but if and only if a transition took place before the rise of anti-aristocratic ideologies.
 
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CJH       9/4/2010 1:12:45 AM
I have heard that Great Britain was headed for a revolution at least as bad as the French Revolution.
 
But before that could happen, Great Britain was swept by the Great Awakening which started in British colonial America with George Whitefield and Jonathan Edwards and then crossed the Atlantic. John Westley traveled to America and later in England became involved with the Methodist movement which was an evangelical one.
 
On the other hand France had no Great Awakening.
 
Also, France's Louis XIV revoked the Edict of Nantes which had protected the French Hugenots who were French Protestants. Many Hugenots fled France taking their energy and work ethic with them. I have heard that the resulting financial lassitude in France contributed a century or so later to the French Revolution.
 
IIRC, one sidelight on Great Britain has to do with the role of Christian dissenters (kind of like evangelicals I guess) in the industrial revolution which started in Great Britain. It seems that these people were barred from the most prosperous and prestigeous professions on account of their not being Church of England. But they applied their energy and imagination to the building of factories and mills at the dawn of the industrial revolution and many acquired wealth and prestige that way.
 
 
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Photon       9/14/2010 2:37:30 AM
It may well be that Louis XIV unintentionally assisted the Brits, as well as several neighboring states by persecuting and driving out the Huguenots?  Within the ranks of Huguenots, there were many involved in trade occupations (e.g., watch-making, banking, textiles, medical).  Due to the persecution, many of them fled, Great Britain and the Netherlands were two top destinations, if my memory is correct.  Switzerland also took in a significant number of Huguenots, as well as numerous German states.  By contrast, the Huguenots were also forbidden to migrate to Quebec due to religious grounds.  (Had the Huguenots allowed to migrate to Canada in large numbers, the 19th century North American political landscape might have turned out differently.)  I suppose France eventually got what it deserved in the form of the French Revolution:  Weakened middle class = greater potential for uphevals.
 
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Photon       9/14/2010 11:34:22 PM
By the way ... continuing on with the Brits:  Unlike the French, the Brits, even though their crown frowned upon denominations other than the Anglican Church, allowed religious dissenters to migrate to their North American colonies.  In other words:  The British North American colonies played the role of social net, thus minimizing the accumulation of domestic discontent.
 
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