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World War II - Japan Discussion Board
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Subject: End of the Japanese Empire - The Use of Atomic Bombs On Japan
CJH    4/1/2005 7:50:19 PM
One thing that has bothered me for years is hearing the US accused, blamed or criticized for the use of atomic bombs on Japan to end the war. The premise of the criticisms seems to be that our use of the two atomic bombs constituted an inhumanity above and beyond that normal for modern warfare. I disagree.

There is a theory that the more efficient a particular technology is at dealing death in war, the fewer people actually suffer in war where that technology is used. From WWI we can surmise the principle that where both sides are evenly matched in a war large numbers of people suffer. In 1862, Indiana physician Dr. Gatling believed that if there were a really terrible weapon of war available to the army of the North, the shorter that terrible war would turn out to be. That was why he invented the Gatling gun.

I think it is fairly evident from the conditions prevailing in August 1945 that it is quite probable that the Japanese people would have suffered much more if the atomic bombs had not been used than they did from their use. One need only observe the allied estimate of a million allied military casualties and then surmise the number of Japanese killed and wounded in proportion to this estimate. One may also observe that conventional bombing which devastated 66 Japanese cities would continue and deprive the population of food production heat, clean water sanitation, etc.

Death and injury from direct causes alone would surely be in the millions. In a prolonged campaign on Japanese soil the population surely would have suffered from indirect causes such as malnutrition, exposure and disease.

As terrible as the local death and destruction was at Hiroshima and Nagasaki the Japanese people were less worse off for their use because of the rapidity with which these bombs ended the war.
 
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JIMF    RE:End of the Japanese Empire - The Use of Atomic Bombs On Japan   4/20/2005 6:04:09 PM
I agree with you. Continuing the war by conventional means including B-29 bombings, attacks by naval aircraft, shore bombardment by battleships, and eventual invasion(s) would have cost millions of lives. It is also estimated that the naval blockade would have resulted in massive starvation of the civilian population beginning in late 1945. There may be a point that the Nagasaki attack came too quickly after Hiroshima, but other than that I don't think the U.S. can be legitimately faulted for using what was perhaps the least destructive method to end the war. The Japanese and their American stooges use the Atomic bombings to shift attention away from Japan's barbaric WW2 record of massive slaughter of civilians and POWs.
 
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Pars    Use of Atomic Bomb in the WW2 - A crime against humanity.   4/22/2005 12:54:31 PM
Neither Hirosima nor Nagazaki were military targets. They were cities that civilians were lived. If USA have had lost the war surely all responsibles would have judged for committing crime against humanity. Was it the only crime in the war? No. Destruction of Berlin, Dortmund, Tokyo and other cities by air bombardment was not less a crime. What is the difference of Atomic Bomb. Facing such a devastating weapon was facing the horror, the terror, incarnate. It was simply a terror weapon. Yes, it ended the war but against an enemy who has already lost the war and who was trying to negotiate for peace. Ending the World War can justify the usage. If it can, then where is the line.
 
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JIMF    RE:Use of Atomic Bomb in the WW2 - A crime against humanity.   4/22/2005 6:08:24 PM
A typical hysterical emotional response interspersed with factual errors. Of course nuclear weapons are horrible, terrible, etc. so was the continuing Japanese occupation of much of China. When were the Japanese trying to negotiate? They made some halfhearted awkward gestures to perhaps have the Soviet Union suggest a settlement, that came to nothing, and they rejected (mokusatsu) the Potsdam declaration. Hiroshima was a city, it was also the headquarters of a Japanese Army. It is a terrible thing that the barbaric militarist butchers that constituted the government of Imperial Japan left my nation no other credible option.
 
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CJH    RE:Use of Atomic Bomb in the WW2 - A crime against humanity.   4/22/2005 8:43:06 PM
Pars, I'm sure unintentionally, raises an issue about the war after referring to bombings of German cities. I'd like to get something off my chest about those low down German Nazis. By June 1944 it was obvious that Germany could not practically hope to keep invading armies out of its territory. The allies had already committed to the unconditional surrender of Germany. The German leadership (Hitler and his astrologers) clung to the fantasy that they could inflict enough cost on the allies to make the allies abandon the aim of German's unconditional surrender and negotiate. So they inhumanly prolonged the war. On July 20, 1944 the Graf Von Stauffenberg bravely tried to kill Hitler with a bomb. Hitler's lieutenants uncovered a plot and arrested the people who wanted to take over after he was to be killed. The German people should have rallied against the war and against Hitler but did not. They made their choice and would have to pay for it. Every one of the thousands of allied personnel who died in that war after June - July 1944 may have as well been murdered in cold blood by the Germans because it was the Germans who insisted against all reason and against all humanity in prolonging the suffering of allied soldiers and allied families by prolonging the war. All the Germans had to do was to have the decency to surrender. In ancient times as well as more recently it had been the accepted practice that those who prolong suffering by stubbornly holding out as the Germans did in WWII would be made to suffer special penalties. When the Romans stormed a city and resistance continued, the Roman soldiers would kill every living thing that they could reach with their swords until they were signalled that the resistance had ceased. Oliver Cromwell's army proceeded on the same convention at the Boyn River because the defenders persisted in killing his men after the defenses had been carried and the end was no longer in doubt. Germany is indeed very fortunate that the allies were merciful to it and did not give it the punishment that its perverseness deserved. There was plenty of room in Siberia above the Arctic Circle for the entire German nation and the Soviets had the infrastructure, expertise and the will to make it happen. But even though the unnecessary deaths of our soldiers, sailors and airmen inflicted by Nazidom was a crime we believed Germany could be salvaged through humane treatment. And by the way. When I visited Poland, Germany was a cuss word. Anyone who complains about Dortmund et al needs to travel through Poland and tell the Poles about it. Then there was Rotterdam. The German Nazis used the threat of bombing Rotterdam to extort a surrender by the Dutch and then after the Dutch gave in, they bombed it anyway. And back to the Japanese. In 1940, the American people were dead set against becoming involved in any foreign war at all. We had a smaller army than Romania. We had destroyed US Navy capital ships to show we were serious about peace. We really believed we could live in peace in this world. We did not start the war. We did not attack Japan. Japan attacked us. All the Japanese had to do was to keep their hands off of what didn't belong to them and we would be their friends. But having already invaded China, they had to sieze French Indochina for which we stopped their oil shipments and then they carried out a sneak attack on US territory. They not only got what they deserved, they got better than they deserved, like the Germans, because that's what we do.
 
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BasinBictory    RE:Use of Atomic Bomb in the WW2 - A crime against humanity.   12/29/2005 7:17:59 AM
CJH, Everything you mentioned about the cruelty of Germans, you can apply to the Japanese tenfold. The Germans visited unbelieveable cruelty against the peoples that Hitler and his Nazi party deemed as "untermenschen" - the Slavs, Poles, Jews, et al. However, they were, for the most part, relatively humane when dealing with American and British prisoners of war. The campaign in North Africa was described as a sort of "friendly" football match. The Japanese, on the other hand, were tremendously cruel in the extreme, everywhere they went. Their pretenses for invading much of Asia, "To save Asia for the Asians!" was revealed as so much BS when they indiscriminately killed civilians among the "liberated" Asian nations. While the Germans had their death camps and deliberately and systematically tried to exterminate the Jews, the Japanese had their "medical experimentation" on CHinese prisoners which, while perhaps not on the same scale in terms of numbers as the German death camps, was every bit, and perhaps even more cruel than the Germans. Japanese soldiers' common practice was to slaughter civilians indiscriminately. For the most part, German soldiers did not typically do this, and most of the time when they did, it was in the form of a reprisal against partisan activity. The Japanese did not do this as an object lesson to the population, they did it because it is what they did. Old men, women, pregnant women, little babies, it did not matter to them. A German soldier might balk at the thought of tossing a Jewish baby in the air and catching it on his bayonet, unless he was consumed by extreme bloodlust, but Japanese soldiers did it as readily as they took a piss. In the Battle of Manila alone, there were at least six documented cases of Japanese soldiers throwing Filipino babies in the air and impaling them on bayonets. Since these six cases were presumably documented by non-Japanese survivors of such atrocities, it is likely that the actual number of incidences was far, far higher. No - the atomic bomb wasn't inhumane. In the long run, it saved perhaps more Japanese lives than American ones.
 
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Ghostrider    RE:Use of Atomic Bomb in the WW2 - A crime against humanity.   12/29/2005 2:50:46 PM
Sorry to butt in here... but low down dirty Nazi's.. there you go again..stereotyping an entire Country. That would be like calling everyone in the US now all Republicans because of who is in office now. The Nazi's were the minority that influenced the greater populace in that there might be hope and prosperity for their country. Now.. about those cities.. all the Allies did was cause mass amounts of Civilian deaths... Look at Normady and Caen for example, the germans had already pulled out and the Allies with poor intelligence kept bombarding the area, causing nearly 40,00 French Casualties. Other cities too were destroyed, and it did not stop German Production one bit. Carpet bombing was an Allied Docterine, and it really did not work at all. If the Allies had lost you could bet that there would have been some serious hangings and Life sentences against the RAF command and the USAAF. Im a born again hard Marine, and Love the US and my Country, but the only reason why the Allies were never punished is because we won the war..Final! You could imagine what would happen if the Victors were reveresed. And the bombing of Cities by the RAF was because of an incidental accident by 2 lone HE-111 that were lost during a night mission trying to bomb a military target, they accidently dropped their loads on London, in attempts to flee from RAF night fighters, or because of fuel restraints. The Luftwaffe had strict orders against Civilian casualties, up until the RAF bombed Berlin, then the gloves came off, which spurned the invention of the V1 and V2 rockets. Sure the Atomic bombs saved lives, but we did not have to use them, if the IJ empire wanted to starve its people by not surrendering, thats their choice. Alot of people in different countries ask, why cant we use Nuclear weapons on our enemies, prime example.. India and Pakistan, they would blow the living hell out of each other if NATO was not present, but they might say, well the US used it in war.. why cant we.... any questions... sometimes weapons are to devestating for those who are iresponsible ie dictator countries and such. anyways just my 2cents worth.
 
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BasinBictory    RE:Use of Atomic Bomb in the WW2 - A crime against humanity.   12/29/2005 9:43:16 PM
Ghostrider, you are not completely correct in the assertion that the Allied bombing campaign against Germany was not effective. Yes, I know that German production actually INCREASED during the whole bombing capaign, which would allude to its ineffectiveness, but this is more testament to the resourcefulness and determination of the German people than to the ineffectiveness of the 8th Air Force and the RAF. Field Marshal Von Rundstedt himself said that the single greatest factor in the German defeat was the Allied bombing. The disruption of industrial production, coupled with the huge amounts of resources that the Luftwaffe had to devote to protecting German airspace (instead of say, providing close air support to their ground forces) was a big factor in the Allied victory. From D-Day on, the Western Allies enjoyed nearly total air superiority in the region where the ground forces were engaged, due to the fact that many Luftwaffe squadrons were tasked with "homeland defense" in trying to keep the bombers from doing their jobs. As far as what is wrong in war - hey, war is just about the ugliest, nastiest, most cruel and barbarous thing that we human beings do to one another. They say that all's fair in love and war, and perhaps it should be that way so that people really think about how horrible war is before they blithely enter into one. History is written by the victors. Why is there no public outcry over what happened to all the various Indian tribes? The US govenment pretty much sanctioned genocide against the Indian tribes throughout its history, including paying bounties on Indian scalps for freelance killers, and distributing rotten meat and smallpox-infected blankets to Indians.
 
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Ghostrider    RE:Use of Atomic Bomb in the WW2 - A crime against humanity.   12/30/2005 10:53:29 AM
Very true.... there BasinBictory, its seems that the "Civilized" nations have a tendancy for doing that to "savage" peoples throughout history. And yes the bombbing campaign was effective in disrupting and paralyzing Germany, however the collatoral damage was enormus... but hey like you said... Oh well.*Grins*
 
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timon_phocas    RE:Use of Atomic Bomb in the WW2 - A crime against humanity.   12/31/2005 11:18:24 AM
Albert Speer, Germany's war production minister, stated that the allied strategic bombing campaign was the decisive factor in Germany's defeat. He said that the air defence took one million of the hightest quality men, half of the artillery production, and half of the aircraft production. This was in addition to the disruption caused by repairing, rebuilding and relocating production facilities. What could Germany haver done against the Soviet Union with another million men, and twice the artillery and air support?
 
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CJH    RE:Use of Atomic Bomb in the WW2 - A crime against humanity.   12/31/2005 12:49:00 PM
I remember a comment in a speach on evolution and other cult beliefs by Ron Carlson (Fast facts on false teachings / Ron Carlson & Ed Decker ISBN 1-56507-168-9). It was to the effect that no culture can rise higher than its god. I have read the Japanese believe or believed in reincarnation (I read James Clavell's "Shogun"). Therefore life is so plentiful that it is cheap. Of course ignorance is no excuse. As for the Germans, I wonder how anyone would believe the Germans deserved to receive better than they handed out to cities such as Rotterdam and Warsaw. They sowed the wind and therefore deservedly reaped the whirlwind. Now had they sowed a Marshal Plan for Europe instead...
 
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Mr. Santa    RE:Use of Atomic Bomb in the WW2 - A crime against humanity.   1/2/2006 12:03:44 PM
Nuking the Japs was totally what they asked for. They deserved it cuz they don't have any humanity in the first.
 
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dogday    RE:End of the Japanese Empire - The Use of Atomic Bombs On Japan   1/4/2006 6:45:42 PM
From what I have heard from some of the veterans of the Pacific war was the Japanese should have been thankfull that the bomb was dropped. Had the marines and army gone through with the invasion there was a good possiblity that there would be no Japanese left today. One of the negetive issues of being willing to die for your leader.
 
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Mex101    RE:End of the Japanese Empire - The Use of Atomic Bombs On Japan   2/11/2006 4:49:14 PM
Did the US have an other optoin maybe not. did they do what was NEEDED to end the war, yes. Was it wrong, yes. Was it necessary, yes It is the same thing with war. Somtimes it is necessary but alwasy wrong. necessary and Right are two very very very defferent things. So nukeing was wrong but necessary.
 
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S-2    RE:End of the Japanese Empire - The Use of Atomic Bombs On Japan/David Westheimer   2/12/2006 1:39:25 PM
Westheimer, the author of "My Sweet Charlie", and "Von Ryan's Express" wrote an alternate history of the invasion of Kyushu called "Death is Lighter than a Feather". I thought that John Hersey had written it, and I had remembered it as excellent. I may be confusing this novel with another, but I frankly can't recall any other work on this subject. Any help, please?
 
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Carl S    RE:   2/12/2006 4:21:22 PM
Not sure of the question. If you are asking about current literature on the end of the Pacific War I'd recomend 'Tenozian' (spelling?). It is a historical analysis of the battle of Okinawa & the last months of the Japanses empire. I have only been able to skim it, but the author seems to be making the point that the Japanese were going to keep on fighting no matter how hopeless as long as their Diety the Emperor requested it. There are several other historys, sorry I cant recall the titles, about the closing weeks of the Empire and of the years under MacAurther.
 
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