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Subject: On this day of 7th December 2006, do we have a good idea of the US mistakes made in the Pacific War?
Herald1234    12/7/2006 8:24:50 AM
I would argue that moving the fleet from San Diego to Pearl Harbor was the opening blunder as it put the fleet within Japan's logistic reach. I would also argue that MacArthur didn't help things by his bungled dispositions for defending the Philippines. There are many others but I think that those two will do for opening this topic. Herald
 
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Ashley-the-man       12/10/2006 1:39:51 PM
What more could be done?
 
You have come up with a number of points for debate  - and I will have fun responding to individual points as I get free time. 
 
The conspiracy you are alluding to is not what I am suggesting.  Simply moving the fleet to Pearl Harbor was a mistake - either a strategic miscalculation or as a provocation to the Japanese that was bound to lead to war.  Your call that Roosevelt "won the war" or that he was brilliant in some manner argues against the facts.  Either he was a bumbler on a strategic level, or he was diabolical in his intent to get us into war.  Either option doesn't paint Roosevelt in a very favorable light. 
 
If you want to argue that he was justified in embroiling the U.S. in a war - that was hugely unpopular in 1941 - then that is another debate.  The same observation that was posed at the end of the link I included a few days ago. 
 
The point was raised that the Pearl Harbor commission was a highly partisan endeavor to exhonorate the President and the senior military leaders - and blame the failure on two scapegoats.  It is hardly a conspiracy theory to question the political motives of any congressional hearing.  The 911 commission was at first opposed by the president, then included in its make up many members that had no right to be there based on roles in government leading up to the attack.  The commission that Sen. Fulbright headed in the early 70's that invited testimony from John Kerry was another stellar example of a prior political agents being pushed at the expense of a true desire to reach an independent conclusion.
 
 
 
 
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Herald1234       12/11/2006 3:57:12 PM


What more could be done?

I actually will deal with this in the  wardfighting arena if the topic goes anywhere, but for now I will stick to Roosevelt and the political arena as it was and not as it has been propagandized by revisionists.

You have come up with a number of points for debate  - and I will have fun responding to individual points as I get free time. 

Take your time. Many of those points are quite complex and givwen the nature of events at the time probably would have not been resolved any differently.  

The conspiracy you are alluding to is not what I am suggesting.  Simply moving the fleet to Pearl Harbor was a mistake - either a strategic miscalculation or as a provocation to the Japanese that was bound to lead to war.  Your call that Roosevelt "won the war" or that he was brilliant in some manner argues against the facts.  Either he was a bumbler on a strategic level, or he was diabolical in his intent to get us into war.  Either option doesn't paint Roosevelt in a very favorable light.

I never said Roosevelt was brilliant. I said he was SUCCESSFUL. That is entirely a different assessment than most people understand when they look at the history. This means he was able to achieve his objectives bettern than his peers. Now did he do it efficiently? That is a case where I can argue either pro or con, but I cannot argue with the results; American near total victory and enemy total defeat, with the allies skinned like rabbits, and the old colonial system smashed.

If you want to argue that he was justified in embroiling the U.S. in a war - that was hugely unpopular in 1941 - then that is another debate.  The same observation that was posed at the end of the link I included a few days ago.

This is not the point I originally raised.

[quoting me from the original post:]


I would argue that moving the fleet from San Diego to Pearl Harbor was the opening blunder as it put the fleet within Japan's logistic reach.

I would also argue that MacArthur didn't help things by his bungled dispositions for defending the Philippines.

There are many others but I think that those two will do for opening this topic.


The point was raised that the Pearl Harbor commission was a highly partisan endeavor to exhonorate the President and the senior military leaders - and blame the failure on two scapegoats.  It is hardly a conspiracy theory to question the political motives of any congressional hearing.  The 911 commission was at first opposed by the president, then included in its make up many members that had no right to be there based on roles in government leading up to the attack.  The commission that Sen. Fulbright headed in the early 70's that invited testimony from John Kerry was another stellar example of a prior political agents being pushed at the expense of a true desire to reach an independent conclusion.

You introduced this point. I never raised it initially as it is not relevant to the original political military premise. But to be honest I don't think the two gentlemen who were in command were scapegoated by the Pearl harbor hearings. They got what they deserved. You still have to supply evidence that the senior US command was derelict in their warnings, cautions, and suggestions to the field commanders.

The 9-11 Commission is a red herring here. It, the 9-11 Commission, was actually a partisan political witchhunt designed to bring blame to the sitting national executive leadership and whitewash the previous group of incompetents-exactly opposite to the cover-up function you try to parallel assign to it, along with the Pearl Harbor Commission; which was a Congressional investigation into a current military disaster. The political military circumstances are totally different in that the enemy did achieve genuine total surprise using a credible, known, but totally dismissed tactic. Furthermore 9-11 was a longterm intelligence failure of the first magnituden going back a decade where the people charged with preventing the disaster deliberatly chose for politi
 
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USMC_ZIGGY       12/19/2006 4:08:16 PM
Dude japs will never attack the united states. right now they are protected by the us, and trust me if they ever attack the us again we wont just be destroying two of there cities. That little island will get blown out of the water.
 
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Ashley-the-man       1/12/2007 1:30:22 AM
 

About what more that could have been done within the availabler resources?

Short and Kimmel;

1. Army and Navy were not talking to each other in Hawaii. Joint means joint. A combined staff would have helped. Since it was a Navy problem in Hawaii, put Kimmel in charge and have Short report to him directly.

2. I know that Admiral Ghormley was an idiot as he would prove at Guadalcanal, but he had been the USN observer during the Battle of Britain. He was at Pearl. Put him in charge of a combined  Army/Navy air defense staff and have them work out a unified air defense plan for Oahu.

3. Run air patrols with the PBYs. I know that they were just about worn out with ASW training, but as long as your burning out enegines  and using up fatigue life in the airframes you might as well as combine air reconnaissance potential wartime exercises  within the unit training

 

4. Demand aviation gas, radars and fighters  from CONUS. First hit gets first call on anything and everything from beans to fuel to weapons. Why Ghormley didn't bring RADAR to Kimmel's attention always puzzled me. He saw it work during the BoB.

5. With war coming like a freight train, why are you using fleet carriers to freight in fighters? Either hold them back as a mobile reserve at San Diego, or keep them at sea together as a possible counter-ambush force for a possible Japanese strike. It would have also helped if in the last two months to war the carriers had practiced their trade in simulated wargames. It must be remembered that on December 7th, the only battle experienced naval aviation that had fought an enemy fleet was BRITISH. Why wasn't PACFLT sending officers to Britain to absorb lessons learned?

Future debacles like losing carriers to submarine torpedoes [Wasp, Yorktown, sunk; Saratoga laid up] might have been avoided.

6. On the political leadership front, it might have helped if Roosevelt paid less attention to his feelings and more attention to his generals and admirals. King and Marshall weren't incompetent. They knew how to crunch the numbers. The US wouldn't be ready to even begin shooting until February/March 1942. Reining in that fanatic, Cordell Hull, and easing the China sanctions for three or four months would have meant a better Philippine defense(For one thing Wainwright would have replaced that bungler MacArthur) and the fleet training program to wartime standards and manning levels of all the new Navy recruits which had begun in April 1940 might have finally borne fruit by then. Plus the US tanker shortage, fuel crunch, and aircraft shortfalls might be made good. For example the Lightning was just coming into squadron service. 200  P-38Lightnings at Oahu instead of 200  P-40s would have made a difference if the raid had come March 7th, 1942 instead of December 7th, 1941.   

 

Herald

 Finally got the holidays behind me and more exciting yet, my trip down to see the Fiesta Bowl.  It was great to participate in what some are calling the greatest college football game ever played.  How bout them Broncos!

1.      Defense of Hawaii was the responsibility of the Army/Short hence his focus on preventing sabotage. The deployment of the fleet was done without an adequate number of B-17’s. Of course there were fewer 17’s in existence than were required to do the job, but that gets back to the ill advised decision to move the fleet. The B-17 was partly designed for this coastal protection role – hence the name Flying Fortress.

 

2.      This action should have been taken back in Washington.

 

3.     

 
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Herald1234    Ashley reply.   1/16/2007 4:06:08 PM

 

 

HINDSIGHT HEROICS

 

 

About what more that could have been done within the available resources?

Short and Kimmel;

1. Army and Navy were not talking to each other in
. Joint means joint. A combined staff would have helped. Since it was a Navy problem in , put Kimmel in charge and have Short report to him directly.

2. I know that Admiral Ghormley was an idiot as he would prove at Guadalcanal, but he had been the USN observer during the
of . He was at . Put him in charge of a combined  Army/Navy air defense staff and have them work out a unified air defense plan for .

3. Run air patrols with the PBYs. I know that they were just about worn out with ASW training, but as long as your burning out enegines  and using up fatigue life in the airframes you might as well as combine air reconnaissance potential wartime exercises  within the unit training

 

4. Demand aviation gas, radars and fighters from CONUS. First hit gets first call on anything and everything from beans to fuel to weapons. Why Ghormley didn't bring RADAR to Kimmel's attention always puzzled me. He saw it work during the BoB.

5. With war coming like a freight train, why are you using fleet carriers to freight in fighters? Either hold them back as a mobile reserve at
San Diego , or keep them at sea together as a possible counter-ambush force for a possible Japanese strike. It would have also helped if in the last two months to war the carriers had practiced their trade in simulated war games. It must be remembered that on December 7th, the only battle experienced naval aviation that had fought an enemy fleet was BRITISH. Why wasn't PACFLT sending officers to to absorb lessons learned?

Future debacles like losing carriers to submarine torpedoes [Wasp,
, sunk; laid up] might have been avoided.

6. On the political leadership front, it might have helped if
paid less attention to his feelings and more attention to his generals and admirals. King and Marshall weren't incompetent. They knew how to crunch the numbers. The wouldn't be ready to even begin shooting until February/March 1942. Reining in that fanatic, Cordell Hull, and easing the China sanctions for three or four months would have meant a better Philippine defense(For one thing Wainwright would have replaced that bungler MacArthur) and the fleet training program to wartime standards and manning levels of all the new Navy recruits which had begun in April 1940 might have finally borne fruit by then. Plus the tanker shortage, fuel crunch, and aircraft shortfalls might be made good. For example the Lightning was just coming into squadron service. 200  P-38Lightnings at instead of 200  P-40s would have made a difference if the raid had come March 7th, 1942 instead of December 7th, 1941.   

 

Herald

 Finally got the holidays behind me and more exciting yet, my trip down to see the Fiesta Bowl.  It was great to participate in what some are calling the greatest college football game ever played.  How bout them Broncos!

1.      Defense of was the responsibility of the Army/Short hence his focus on preventing sabotage. The deployment of the fleet was done without an adequate number of B-17’s. Of course there were fewer 17’s in existence than were required to do the job, but that gets back to the ill advised decision to move the fleet. The B-17 was partly designed for this coastal protection role – hence the name Flying Fortress.

         The B-17 was designed as a strategic bomber and sold to Congress as a shore defense aircraft. It was not as it proved at Midway and at in the of the where it wasted bombs and hit nothing. The PBY was purpose designed as a naval patrol/reconnaissance plane and did that job well.

Sabotage was an internal security problem and should have been so handled. Dispersal of aircraft would have been the correct response in either sabotage or an air attack in either event. Suppose you had been a landed Japanese sabotage team with a mortar? All those nice bunched planes at Hickam? Short and his air commanders were idiots..  

2.      This action should have been taken back in

 Agreed. Blame

3.      Relates to the problem facing General Short, inadequate reconnaissance resources. 

 That was Kimmel’s re

 
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bsl    Bottom Line   1/20/2007 10:14:47 PM
Long thread, same points.
Bottom line is that it's a mistake to miss the forest for the trees.
The problem at Pearl Harbor was local and tactical. The basic decision
to rebase the Pacific Fleet was not militarily bad. The position was defensible
with the resources actually available against the forces actually brought to bear
had the defenses been properly deployed. There would have been heavy damage,
but the fleet ought not have been sunk.

The real argument ought be over the political implications of the rebasing.
It's reasonable to argue that this was, in fact, a provocative act which increased
the likelihood of war with Japan. It's ultimately a losing argument, because Japan
didn't go to war because of Hawaii. It went to war because of what it felt was
the unacceptable threat of the American presence in the Phillipines which was
a potential threat to the prospective Japanese lines of communications to the areas
it intended to conquer to the south. But, at the time, it might have been believed
that sending the fleet west would be seen as a challenge by Japan. Not in law
or diplomatic conventions of the era. But, in effect.

OTOH, this sort of argument really does require a badly skewed point of view, since
there was simply no legitimate way to argue that a country had no right to station it's
forces on it's own territory and even less way to argue that sending forces to a point
more than five thousand miles from Japan was in any reasonable view an aggressive
move with respect to Japan.


 
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Ashley-the-man       1/23/2007 3:57:37 PM
 

“Long thread, same points.
Bottom line is that it's a mistake to miss the forest for the trees.
The problem at Pearl Harbor was local and tactical. The basic decision
to rebase the Pacific Fleet was not militarily bad. The position was defensible
with the resources actually available against the forces actually brought to bear
had the defenses been properly deployed. There would have been heavy damage,”

 

What is never answered is what was the reason for the rebasing of the fleet. In the case of an actual state of war, the Pacific fleet could have steamed out to meet the Japanese for the Jutland type battle that had been anticipated and war gamed by both sides. Battleships did not patrol out of Hawaii and were not suited for that purpose. If the rebasing was to dissuade the Japanese from further expansion, then the embargoes and diplomatic pressure from the U.S. could have been eased to allow the Japanese to obtain the raw materials denied them by the U.S. 

 

Roosevelt realized he did not have the backing of the population and congress to start a war. Moving the fleet was the next best thing as it was bound to be provocative to the Japanese. The actual attack provided the optimal propaganda value that Roosevelt desired. In fact, if more effective defense measures were enacted at Pearl Harbor and were successful in discouraging a Japanese attack, then the Roosevelt plan would be at risk of failure. Orders were given to defend against sabotage. That was done. The Carriers were out making deliveries and appropriately conducting reconnaissance in their sphere of influence. 

 

Again, is there some other historical reason given for the rebasing of the fleet?

 
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