Rhodesian Commando

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longrifle RE:Rhodesian Commando 11/15/2005 12:00:56 AM

They were units of the Rhodesian Army. The Rhodesian Light Infantry was a parachute light infantry force. I think they called their sub-units Commandos but I'm not sure if the "Commandos" were battalion or company size. The Rhodesian SAS was simliar in organization to the British SAS but I think it was only one squadron and all white. The Selous Scouts were similar to the SAS but included blacks and were mostly used for scouting and tracking operations. They were supposed to be great trackers and survivalists, "bushmen" I guess the term would be.

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Yimmy RE:Rhodesian Commando 11/15/2005 9:23:38 AM

Are they all dispanded today?

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Liver RE:Rhodesian Commando 11/15/2005 9:26:54 AM

I think they may have been disbanded when "Rhodesia" (zimbabwe) was handed over in 1980 (i may be wrong on this though) - they have some info on them in the imperial war museum in the small wars/ post 1945 exhibit IIRC

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Horsesoldier RE:Rhodesian Commando 11/15/2005 9:57:33 AM

>>Who exactly were these Rhodesians mentioned? I have been meaning to ask about them for ages, but never got round to it. Whenever you brouse a British army surplus outlet, you always see various webbing accessries and the likes labelled as being ex-Rhodesian, or Rhodesian type etc. Although I am sure this is in the same context as labeling a $2 watch "SAS issue", what was the unit, and what made them so famous?<< Like Longrifle said, I was referring to the actual Rhodesian military prior to that country's transformation into Zimbabwe. Some of their other units (white and black) could have some hits and misses in terms of operations, but the RLI, Rhodesian SAS, and the Selous Scouts were absolutely hard as coffin nails and masters of COIN operations.

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Yimmy RE:Rhodesian Commando 11/15/2005 10:04:26 AM

Heh, well I hope they are all long gone then. I never realised Zimbabwei used to be Rhodesia.... and would dearly like for us to go in an kick Mugabe out.

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Horsesoldier RE:Rhodesian Commando 11/15/2005 10:13:46 AM

>>The Rhodesian Light Infantry was a parachute light infantry force. I think they called their sub-units Commandos but I'm not sure if the "Commandos" were battalion or company size.<< Companies were "commandos" and platoons "troops." Also included a pretty high percentage of non-Rhodesian troops from elsewhere in the Commonwealth (and a number of American Vietnam veterans as well). >>The Rhodesian SAS was simliar in organization to the British SAS but I think it was only one squadron and all white.<< I think it also had the honor, lineage-wise, of being the first post-WW2 SAS unit put back into service, having gone over to Malaysia for the emergency there. >>The Selous Scouts were similar to the SAS but included blacks and were mostly used for scouting and tracking operations. They were supposed to be great trackers and survivalists, "bushmen" I guess the term would be.<< They were actually practitioners of very "black" special operations whose methods were disguised by calling them trackers. Their typical operational approach consisted of sending mixed European and African reconnaissance teams into areas suspected of being guerilla safe havens, etc., posing as newly arrived fighters from over the border in Mozambique or other hostile nations (for this to work the European members of the unit patrolled in full blackface so they could pass as African from a distance). Rather than just putting eyes on guerillas, they would make contact with them, interact with them (all this was done by the African troopers in the unit, with the white troopers making themselves scarce at such times), and eventually call in an RLI fireforce to annihilate them. It worked remarkably well -- the Rhodesians had a good intel network and so knew many of the right names to drop and such and the guerillas were very poorly equipped with radios so fact checking on the spot was nearly impossible. They later got into bigger operations, but retained the highly unconventional approach -- ambush busting with a Q Bus whose innocent exterior concealed several .50 cal and 7.62mm machineguns, and some large cross-border raids that included rolling into a guerilla training camp of 5000 or so, again in blackface to get past the perimeter security, and commencing to machinegun everyone they could lay eyes and guns on. They are also notable for 1) being the only unit in the Rhodesian army that paid nearly equitable wages to blacks and whites (base pay for blacks was much lower, but all troopers drew identical hazardous duty pay regardless of race). 2) startling willingness to work with "turned" guerillas. There are numerous cases where they captured a guerilla or two and, in the field, explained to him he could either be turned over to Special Branch and the Rhodesian legal system (terrorism being a capital crime) or throw his lot in with them right there on the spot. Those who opted to join the Scouts were given their weapons back immediately -- which sounds utterly insane, but apparently there was only one documented case where a guerilla is believed to have subsequently betrayed his recon team. If one can find a copy of it for less than the price of a first born child, "Top Secret War" by Ron Reid-Daly (former commander of the unit) is an excellent read on one of the more unusual and innovative units and approaches to counter-insurgency out there (note, however, that the tactics the Selous Scouts used were not developed by them -- my recollection is that they were first used in Malaya). Rhodesian

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longrifle RE:Sites of intrest 11/15/2005 10:53:15 AM

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Cato RE:Useless Anecdote 11/15/2005 11:11:32 AM

I had the pleasure to speak to gentleman who served in the Royal Artillery for three years, then with the SAS for ten. He retired in 1986, and said (admittedly very little) that in the course of the early 1980's he worked with several former Rhodesians(white dudes only). They were the best of the best, and their fieldcraft was "absolutely superior". Didn't much care for ZANU PF. Always humbling to meet somebody older than your father who could kill you with his bare hands. Cato

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Sentinel Selous Scouts (Psuedo Operations) 11/18/2005 9:47:48 PM

I guess what made Rhodesian so effective is that they combined a undercover or psuedo guerilla team to locate teams that had infiltrated their contry, and a air-mobile strike force, called a fire force, to deploy rapidly to kill the highly mobile guerillas. But, I think the crux of their ability lay within the Selous Scouts. The idea of the unit was so outside the box, that the conventional military mind could barley tolerate it's existence. In fact, if you read Ron Reid Daly's book, he was their commander, you find that much of their recruiting of captured guerillas was hidden from their own general officers. The book is a great read! Some of the ruses they pulled of were incredible. I've often though that what we need in Iraq are something like the Selous Scouts. Another thing that made the Rhodesian military as a whole so noteworthy was just what they were able to accomplish with so many strikes against them. The whites were like less than 1% of the population. They were under sanctions, They had a largely agricultural economy, meaning the white population was really spread out. But, inspite of this, and thanks to the Selous Scouts, Rhodesian Light Infantry, and the SAS, they were never defeated in battle, and ended the war in a political aggreement. It's facinating military history! It's too bad so few know about it.

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longrifle RE:Selous Scouts (Psuedo Operations) 11/18/2005 11:23:03 PM

>>I've often though that what we need in Iraq are something like the Selous Scouts.<< Agree sort of. If there was an advantage to that organization and their operational methods, then what we need in Iraq in for some of out current SOF to start operating like the Selous Scouts did. Not, I believe, to create yet another SOF. When Rhodesia decided it needed an airborne force, I think they reorganized and trained the existing Rhodesian Light Infantry. I don't think they created a new organization from scratch.

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Sentinel RE:Selous Scouts (Psuedo Operations) 11/19/2005 8:10:21 AM

No, I don't think you need an entirely new command. But, one of the great strengths of the selous scouts was their ability to recruit native Shona, and Ndebele speakers, who could actually talk the talk. I'm not sure, but I think the number of native Arabic speakers in the SF is probably not enough to form even one psuedo team. You'd have to have, as the Selous Scout had, recruits from the territories you were going to operate in. That means, your typical green beanie is out. They had a problem kind of like this in the Scouts, while they could find whites who spoke Shona. The problem was still that they were white, and it would be hard to believe they were part of the black/communist/nationalist insurgency. What they ended up doing was putting black make up on the white officer in charge, (No I'm not kidding) Obviously, this wouldn't pass close inspection, but it was good enough is someone saw them from say 50m. So the white officer, had to stay kind of off in the distance. He would primarily direct the team from the rear and maintain radio contact. While there was a black team member who could actually do close in meets, with other guerrillas and villiage heads. I think in one case, probably in others they actually tied up their white officer to make him look like he was one of their hostages! I think you're right. I haven't or don't remember any mention of a Rhodesian Paratroop Bn. I think the RLI were it. Of course the SAS were parachute qualified, but that's not exactly the same as a conventional airborne force. I don't think, however, that the RLI became, a parachute until sanctions began to take a toll on the number of available Allouette helos. That is when they started to use Dakotas, cargo planes, to insert their fireforces. At the height of the war, troops of the RLI were doing 3 combat drops per day!!!

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eu4ea RE:Selous Scouts (Psuedo Operations) 11/19/2005 2:02:32 PM

I've been hunting in Zimbabwe a couple of times in the late 90's, before this latest mugabe mess. The professional hunters were almost to a man ex south africa or rhodesian army types, most of them commandos of various sort, including Scouts. Some of the conversation around the campfire revolved around the old days. A lot of what they did was black ops - *very* black ops - and they seemed to routinelly get away with it, due to superior intelligence, lack of communications amongst the rebels, and the very poor training/abilities of most rebels. One op I remember involved hijacking red cross trucks, putting mg's behind the tailgates, and driving them into rebels camps. The locals (rebels and refugees, they were often but not allways the same) would come gather around the trucks, and at a signal they droped the tailgates and machine gunned everyone in sight, most of whom were holding their cups and canteens. Others were about surrounding camps or insurgent towns, dropping mortars into them and waiting r everyon the ruch out and then gunning them down. Yet others were about monitoring the zambesi river, waiting for insurgents to make a crossing, then gunning the canoes -either killing them or dropping them into heavily croc-infested waters. It seems they were *awfully* tough, unscrupulous and effective bush warriors - though by our standards much of what they did would be considered at least unscrupulous civilian repression, or even war crimes.

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kjetski RE:Selous Scouts (Psuedo Operations) 11/19/2005 2:32:37 PM

It seems they were *awfully* tough, unscrupulous and effective bush warriors - though by our standards much of what they did would be considered at least unscrupulous civilian repression, or even war crimes. -snip- That sounds about right from my read on the Scouts and the RLI. Coming from a man who keeps a color copy of the UDI on his wall at work. Last I read Ian Smith is still kicking!

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kjetski RE:Selous Scouts (Psuedo Operations) 11/19/2005 2:33:35 PM

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Horsesoldier RE:Selous Scouts (Psuedo Operations) 11/20/2005 12:32:27 PM

>>But, one of the great strengths of the selous scouts was their ability to recruit native Shona, and Ndebele speakers, who could actually talk the talk.<< It wouldn't work in Iraq. One of the reasons it worked in Rhodesia was because of the dreadful quality of communications the guerillas possessed -- no one could check a Selous Scout team's bone fides via radio until it was far too late. Another reason was that the guerillas largely hid out in the bush and made sporadic contact with villagers. Iraq is straight forward urban guerilla work, so Selous Scout type tactics there would not only have to fool the guerillas, but fool and infiltrate the populace in general, which provides several orders of magnitude more chances for discovery and compromise. Finally, the rank and file of ZANLA and ZIPRA in Rhodesia do not appear to have been very effectively indoctrinated with revolutionary ideology -- as evidenced by the Scouts' ability to turn captured prisoners in the field with reliable consistency -- which compares very negatively with the death-cult commitment of your typical Arab jihadi and his jahiliyya apostasy. Not to mention the complication introduced by actual demographics of the insurgents in Iraq -- even native Iraqi agents would have problems getting into cells since the most active insurgent elements are foreign infiltrators who have already been vetted and delivered via rat lines. To pull a Selous Scouts type operation you'd have to infiltrate individuals, not teams, via the infiltration network from Syria, etc. A repeat of the Selous Scouts tactics might work in some places in the modern era, but I'm skeptical of its applicability to Iraq. >>I'm not sure, but I think the number of native Arabic speakers in the SF is probably not enough to form even one psuedo team.<< 5th Special Forces Group has the Middle East as its primary geographic AOR, with all 18 series personnel and some of its military intelligence personnel receiving language training relevant to its AOR. I suspect that somewhere within the personnel on ODAs/ODBs or in the MIDs (approaching a thousand authorized slots within that Group alone) you can scare up a half dozen fluent Arabic speakers who can look the part . . . >>You'd have to have, as the Selous Scout had, recruits from the territories you were going to operate in. That means, your typical green beanie is out.<< Latino SF personnel fluent in Arabic were operating deep in Iraq and posing as Arabs or Kurds successfully for much of the lead up to Operation Iraqi Freedom and during that operation. Not all can manage it -- too much indian blood and one looks out of place, but dark complected, basically southern European ancestry with a mustache looks like 99% of the men in Iraq today. As can some others with, obviously, actual Arabic ancestry or some other southern European ethnic backgrounds, etc. But if all that was required was looking the part and scouring the brush to find insurgents, then SF already has that capability covered. The problem is that pulling such an operation in Iraq is more complicated (by improved technology and urban versus rural operating environment), and of a different nature (i.e. insurgents are delivered into Iraq via an infiltration network, not just handed their guns and told to march in to a safe area as the Rhodesian guerillas did, as well as their ideological indoctrination, etc), than the operations the Selous Scouts ran.

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