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Subject: MARSOC-FORCE RECON
papanik1    9/10/2008 3:46:18 PM
There is a rumor that Force Recon Companies will come back in the active Corps ( they still exist in the reserves) instead of Deep Recon Companies at Battalion level. Also in a month or so there will be a common operators training course for MARSOC personel, ( with some different follow up training after,(depending on assignment to MSOAG or MSOB) but its not clear if and when MSOCs and MSOTs will get to be more interchangeable in capabilities as Special Forces teams currently are. Any info on FR, and MARSOC training and evolving team missions? Right now its hard to imagine someone from MSOAG going to a MSOB unit without lots of extra training. Also does anybody know if diver/airborne/BRC training will be a "must" for all personel of MSOB teams as was the case with FR?
 
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SCCOMarine       9/11/2008 10:24:48 AM

There is a rumor that Force Recon Companies will come back in the active Corps ( they still exist in the reserves) instead of Deep Recon Companies at Battalion level. 

I haven't heard much about it, but there's something you may want to look into.
 
Fr/what I've been told even though 1st & 2nd FR disbanded in '06 to turn into the 1st & 2nd MSOB.  1st Force has been operating a 3 Plt Forward Operations Company Detachment in Iraq.
 
I don't have much info on it for you but it might be worth looking into.
 
Maybe when we pull out of Iraq in large #'s that FWD DET might be the baseline for re-establishing the Actv. Duty Companies.
 
Like I said I hope they eventually dissolve the Divisional Recon BNs altogether & bring the whole Reconnaissance Community under the MEFs (Marine Expeditionary Forces).
 
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SCCOMarine       9/11/2008 4:53:04 PM

Also in a month or so there will be a common operators training course for MARSOC personel, ( with some different follow up training after,(depending on assignment to MSOAG or MSOB) but its not clear if and when MSOCs and MSOTs will get to be more interchangeable in capabilities as Special Forces teams currently are. Any info on FR, and MARSOC training and evolving team missions?

I don't know much about the Marine Special Operations Individual Training Course.  What I have heard is that its very similar to the MSOAG 7mth intial training package, but its now the required baseline for all MARSOC Marines.
 
Now I'm not sure if 'all' means 'ALL', but I do know that its required for all Task Force Enablers which is just another name for the Spec Ops Support Group (MSOSG).
 
But if DET-1 is any guide, LT CMDR Mark Dive was the Navy SEAL who was tasked w/ writing the Official Evalution Report for SOCOM.  One of the things he said that blew his mind was the 1st time he watched the DET's Admin & Support Plts gear up & go thru a Direct Action Assault Drill that his SEALs just went thru.
 
I also know for certain that all the Support guys attached to the MSOC go thru the MSOC's initial 5wk DA Course, so will see.
 
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SCCOMarine       9/11/2008 4:55:07 PM

But if DET-1 is any guide, LT CMDR Mark Dive was the Navy SEAL who was tasked w/ writing the Official Evalution Report for SOCOM. 


Sorry, thats LT CMDR Mark Divine.
 
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papanik1    MARSOC- ITC   9/21/2008 7:21:13 AM
  Here is the only info |I found about the new MARSOC Individual Training Course. Comes from "Inside Defence":

"Rogers said MARSOC candidates are screened and recruited, then are assessed based on a course they take.

Beginning in fiscal year 2008, selected Marines will take an individual training course beyond the initial course, he added.

The first phase of the course will run for about 65 days and include training and education in combat medicine, communication, fire support, special reconnaissance, planning, weapons and tactics and survival, escape, resistance and evasion procedures, Rogers told ITP.

Lasting about 44 days, the second phase will involve ?further training and practical application in training, communication, special reconnaissance, weapons/tactics,? he said. This stage calls for two weeks of training in direct action.

Moreover, the third phase will focus on foreign internal defense, followed by training in information operations, advanced special operations, unconventional warfare, further planning and culminate in a 14-day exercise.

The final stage is comprised of 50 training days and will instruct Marines in language (about 300 hours) and culture training, as well as several days of sustainment training in the areas addressed during steps one through three, he said.

Marines will graduate during this phase.

The course will credential a Marine like a Navy SEAL or a U.S. Army Special Forces soldier, Rogers said.

To that end, the longer training and indoctrination period offers Marines ?the appreciation of independent operation, maturity, teamwork, specialized skills, language, culture -- so they can operate fluidly on their own when assigned these special operations missions around the world.?

This year will also see MARSOC extend tours for its troops to five years, said the command?s chief of staff, explaining that the tour length refers to the period a Marine assigned to an operational unit will remain with MARSOC before moving on to another position elsewhere.

?The purpose of a five-year tour rather than the traditional three-year tour is to ensure the best return on MARSOC?s training investment,? he added. He said many specialized skills like language require up-front development and are ?highly perishable.?

In addition to discussing future goals, Rogers talked about lessons gleaned last year. But he stopped short of explaining any failures".
 
Thats about it. The way it looks, every MARSOC operator will go through the same training, even if he comes from a Recon outfit. And it looks like from know one you wont have to be a 0321 MOS holder in order to get to a MSOB.  But will non 0321 mos holders have to go through BRC  or whatever the new name is in order to get to a MSOB?
 
It seems MARSOC is going the SF way and not the SEAL way. Meaning that there will be some MSOTs in a MSOB that have a DA/SR specialisation (and be scuba/airborne/scoutswimmer qualified) while other MSOTs will be FID/UW qualified with more emphasis on teaching/ SME/ langouage/culture).
 
It is obvious the USMC is looking at some "cross" between Seals and SF regarding training emphasis but I cant say I understand exactly the way they want to organise and combine these two types of MSOTs ( with same baseline capabilities -besides methods of entry- but different specialisation.
 
For instance for as long as MSOAG is a FID Force there is propably no need for them to be airborne and scuba qualified. But if UW gets to be a mission, some o f them will have to be qualified in covert -clandestine methods of entry in denied areas.
 
|Any info available? 
 
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papanik1    FORCE RECON COME BACK   9/26/2008 3:09:24 PM
This is from the Force Recon Association site so i consider it is semi-official:
 
"Delta Company, 1st Recon Bn. (soon to become 1st Force Reconnaissance Company) was at the MARSOC range training in preparation for their next deployment".
 
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SCCOMarine       9/29/2008 11:09:21 PM
Thats about it. The way it looks, every MARSOC operator will go through the same training, even if he comes from a Recon outfit. And it looks like from know one you wont have to be a 0321 MOS holder in order to get to a MSOB.  But will non 0321 mos holders have to go through BRC  or whatever the new name is in order to get to a MSOB?

It seems MARSOC is going the SF way and not the SEAL way. Meaning that there will be some MSOTs in a MSOB that have a DA/SR specialisation (and be scuba/airborne/scoutswimmer qualified) while other MSOTs will be FID/UW qualified with more emphasis on teaching/ SME/ langouage/culture).

It is obvious the USMC is looking at some "cross" between Seals and SF regarding training emphasis but I cant say I understand exactly the way they want to organise and combine these two types of MSOTs ( with same baseline capabilities -besides methods of entry- but different specialisation.

For instance for as long as MSOAG is a FID Force there is propably no need for them to be airborne and scuba qualified. But if UW gets to be a mission, some o f them will have to be qualified in covert -clandestine methods of entry in denied areas.

Any info available? 


 
I think its going to mislead your understanding if your looking at MarSoc's different MSOT's as being more like this SOF Unit or more like that one.
 
Your looking at the fact that alot of the Baseline MarSoc training assesses the ability of each Indiviual Marine to be able to 'individually' conduct FID assignments as making MarSoc's Units more like SF than SEALs, but thats misleading.
 
It makes their Intial Training Course more like SF's ITC than the SEAL's ITC, but not their capabilities.  When looking at BUD/S you have to remember it has to turn raw sailors into Combat Ready operators.  MarSoc doesnt have that problem. 
 
They're starting w/Combat Hardened Marines, who are already well versed in Small Unit Tactics, Excellent Marksmanship, Excellent Physical Conditioning, Land Nav, etc.  If anything they have the exact opposite problem.  MarSoc could make BN's of Tactical Shooters.  Like Lt Cmdr Divine said even their (Det-1's) admin/support guys could run thru our SEAL DA Drills.
 
Also K.I.M. the majority of the Marines headed to the DASR are already 0321's & are already well trained & exp'd on the tactical side.  So if you're already starting w/ a tough group of tactically competent shooters, then it allows your baseline training to focus on different criteria for selecting personnel & not on recreating a tough bunch of shooters.
 
So it doesnt make the DASR MSOT's more similar to SF than to SEALs in mission capabilities b/c their ITC has alot of focus on FID, it just means they're starting fr/ different places.  Also that doesnt take into account the DASRs 18mth Unit Training Phase which is balls to the wall Direct Action & SR w/ a little FID.
 
 
 
 
You also have to understand that when the DASR uses FID its mostly as a Force Continuum, using it to generate more SR & DA, which makes them more self-reliant & self-contained.
 
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papanik1       9/30/2008 3:42:03 PM
 I get your point.
This is not verified or anything, but my hunch or educated guess if you will, is that MARSOC will soon be something like ?Marine Special Forces? ( I am not using the expression in a diminutive way).

From bits and pieces it seems that

a)      There is going to be a common Individual Training Course for every operational MARSOC Marine, regardless of MOSs ( not just for 03XX anymore).

b)      The curriculum is very ?Special Forces like? with language training a formal lengthy part of it. AND this is the big difference btween SF and other SOF ( language, cultural awareness and the "by, through, with" others  staff)

c)      There is pressure for a MARSOC MOS bc 5 year tours ?are not enough since an operator needs 3-4 years just to be an able part of the team? which applies to Unconventional Warfare more than to classic SR/DA missions.

d)      SOCOM needs UW fighters in the GWOT context more than it needs ?Door Kickers?.

 

What I am getting at is that MARSOC will follow the SF example of UW-centric teams, some of them specialising more in DA/SR and some in FID/COIN but with same baseline training like in SF and- at least theoretically- interchangeable.

In both cases primary mission will be UW and ability to conduct other missions comes as a by product of the core capability, with some extra effort.

This is a long way away from traditional SEAL/FR training which is centred around DA/SR and vice versa.

So, I think soon the relationship of the Recon Community with MARSOC will be like the one between Rangers and SF. Some of the former choose to move on to the later and never comeback, while the later counts on other Moss and specialties to fill the bulk of the ranks.

But this way the best people from FR and Recon are almost surely going to move to MARSOC ( more money, more gear more training bc of SOCOM) and stay there.

On the other hand I might be wrong and things may evolve the way envisioned by a big part of the USMC, meaning that people get to move back and forth between the communities (guys specialising in DA/SR moving to FR or RECON and guys with more UW-FID experience moving to SC MAGTF Battalions and MCTAG) carrying their experience with them.

IMO this could be a better solution for the Institution (USMC), given the Marine Corps Tradition, but not many people (from the actual operators) seem to like it.

 
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SCCOMarine    Long But Should Answer Some Of Your Qs   10/1/2008 4:02:44 AM

 I get your point.
This is not verified or anything, but my hunch or educated guess if you will, is that MARSOC will soon be something like ?Marine Special Forces? ( I am not using the expression in a diminutive way).

From bits and pieces it seems that


a)      There is going to be a common Individual Training Course for every operational MARSOC Marine, regardless of MOSs ( not just for 03XX anymore).

b)      The curriculum is very ?Special Forces like? with language training a formal lengthy part of it. AND this is the big difference btween SF and other SOF ( language, cultural awareness and the "by, through, with" others  staff)

c)      There is pressure for a MARSOC MOS bc 5 year tours ?are not enough since an operator needs 3-4 years just to be an able part of the team? which applies to Unconventional Warfare more than to classic SR/DA missions.

d)      SOCOM needs UW fighters in the GWOT context more than it needs ?Door Kickers?.

What I am getting at is that MARSOC will follow the SF example of UW-centric teams, some of them specialising more in DA/SR and some in FID/COIN but with same baseline training like in SF and- at least theoretically- interchangeable.

In both cases primary mission will be UW and ability to conduct other missions comes as a by product of the core capability, with some extra effort.

This is a long way away from traditional SEAL/FR training which is centred around DA/SR and vice versa.



I think the danger of trying to see it as being like SF or being like SEALs is that you've now limited seeing them thru the narrow prism u've just set-up.  b/c then as other facts are added u'r forced to run off on an infinite # of tangents trying to make sense of it & make all the pieces fit.

 

Here's my pt, if their were no such thing as an SF or a SEAL team u would take the info given & let it make sense w/out it having to end up in either a SEAL or SF box.

 

Clear u'r mind, think about the Marine Corps.  The USMC has always viewed things full spectrum, always developed units to the overall mission.  U'r on the right track w/ UW, but the DASRs primary mission is & will remain DA/SR; the MSOAG MSOTs is & will remain SOF-FID.  So how does all that jive..

 

I'l give u an example.  The USMC has an ability to morph itself for all types of missions but if u look over its history especially the last 50yrs its mostly been used as a Crisis Response/Quick Reaction Force to any clime/place, hence the emphasis on Expeditionary.  But... if u look at its mission training time(not incl' the recent OIF Deps) it dedicates most of its training time to its least likely mission; Amphibious Assault.  

 

Why...?  Are they stupid, slow, not as smart & can't see what everyone else does?? 

 

No, its b/c AA is the most Complex Military Manuever in modern warfare.  Training for it encompasses almost all the Tactical & Technical training of the other missions the USMC trains for.  And when done right is virtually unstoppable.

 

So should they shift more training time to  CR/QRF... No, they have the training mix just right, they're at the top of the game in the CR & QRF missions.  Adding more Response training time would do very little to improve on that.  It would detract fr/ a more complicated overall more effective training mission.

 

Its the same w/ UW, its the hardest mission of SO to teach & more than likely the least likely to encounter.  So why train to it..?  B/C it empcompasses nearly all other SO skills combined & when done right, its virtually unstoppable.

 

So for the DASR, DA & SR will always remain their

 
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papanik1    very good points   10/2/2008 2:18:39 PM
Very good and interesting points. I dig the conceptual framework. Would agree 100% if everybody coming to MARSOC would be an experienced 0321. But this is not the case. In fact latest info says even non-03XX will be admited to ITC. I know that "every Marine is a rifleman" but there are limits.
 
IMO, MARSOC is  in a "SF like" path. Meaning MSOTs with different specialisations-"primary missions", (even in methods of entry like SCUBA/HALO etc) but same "baseline" skills,
 
The way it evolves, it will be a place for older experienced 0321s (ex Recon and FR), that dont want to get tours out of the community (as I understand FR and Recon SNCOs do now) like it happens with Army Rangers leaving the Regiment to join SF, (and never coming back since they change branch) and all other MOSs that come from the regular forces to join MARSOC.
 
Although it started with FR people, it will be a different "animal" from now on, especially since FR is coming back and maybe getting back the MSOCs place in the MEU. (good for the MEU Commander who in reality lost a premium capability after MARSOC came to be - b/c of OPCON situation and remote deployments of MSOCs)
 
In a few words I think the USMC is a bit perpelexed with this issue.
 
For instance I read that Captains going to MARSOC will loose the opprtunity for infantry/ battery company command and Bat XO/OO positions, b/c of 5 year tours. Some people advocate a MARSOC MOS and a closed loop for officers and enlisted.
 
I thought that an Officer would go to MARSOC as a junior Captain ( in place of a B-Billet) for 3 years, then do ILE get a company command and possibly go back to MARSOC as a junior major to command a MSOC.  
 
Got any info on these issues?
 
 
 
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SCCOMarine    I've #d your posts to my responses   10/3/2008 12:21:52 AM

1)  Very good and interesting points. I dig the conceptual framework. Would agree 100% if everybody coming to MARSOC would be an experienced 0321. But this is not the case. In fact latest info says even non-03XX will be admited to ITC. I know that "every Marine is a rifleman" but there are limits.
 
2)   IMO, MARSOC is  in a "SF like" path. Meaning MSOTs with different specialisations-"primary missions", (even in methods of entry like SCUBA/HALO etc) but same "baseline" skills,
 
The way it evolves, it will be a place for older experienced 0321s (ex Recon and FR), that dont want to get tours out of the community (as I understand FR and Recon SNCOs do now) like it happens with Army Rangers leaving the Regiment to join SF, (and never coming back since they change branch) and all other MOSs that come from the regular forces to join MARSOC.
 
Although it started with FR people, it will be a different "animal" from now on, especially since FR is coming back and maybe getting back the MSOCs place in the MEU. (good for the MEU Commander who in reality lost a premium capability after MARSOC came to be - b/c of OPCON situation and remote deployments of MSOCs)
 
In a few words I think the USMC is a bit perpelexed with this issue.
 
For instance I read that Captains going to MARSOC will loose the opprtunity for infantry/ battery company command and Bat XO/OO positions, b/c of 5 year tours. Some people advocate a MARSOC MOS and a closed loop for officers and enlisted.
 
I thought that an Officer would go to MARSOC as a junior Captain ( in place of a B-Billet) for 3 years, then do ILE get a company command and possibly go back to MARSOC as a junior major to command a MSOC.  
 
Got any info on these issues?



1)   I know & understand everything that u just said but to better understand this u hav to treat it like a science or mathmatical equation, which means 1st separating out the variables & finding a control.  A solid strarting point who's place in the equation is clearly understood.  I gave u that w/ the 0321.

Now if MarSoc wanted to start fr/ scratch w/creating the DASR teams they would've done that fr/the beginning & initiated an ITC to bring in all MOS's, but they didn't, & they did that for a reason.  That reason they've stated a million-X, the basis of our DA/SR capability will be that of the Former FR Marine.   Why...?

Its the control... the known quantity.  To 1st set up an FR capability in the DASR, then incorporate where u want this thing to go.  If you've noticed now that they've started the ITC only after every MSOC's DASR MSOTs have been formed & depl'd.   Why...?

You've rightly pointed out that the ITC is open to all MOS's & that all Marines aspiring to be an Operator in either the DASR or MSOAG MSOTs must pass thru.  Now that its open to all, just like FR used to be u didn't have to  be an 0321 try out for FR, you need solid FR leadership in place to train these Marines to properly perform DASR.  You see u'r making the focus about the ITC.  The ITC isnt sh*t but a rubric, a leveler to ensure that anyone who aspires to continue on in training must have the ability to eventually conduct the most advanced of SO skills, UW. 

Which is why the Base Course for MarSoc Operators centers so heavily on FID, b/c if an individual doesnt hav the personal skill to teach FID then they can't eventually put it all together & conduct UW.  Thats why I use the ex. of the 0321 in the early post, to point out that tactically everything taught in the ITC is redundant & reduced.  But operationally there's 1 difference, being required to learn FID.  If he fails to learn that in the ITC he FAILs.  Why??

Its not that FID is going to be his primary job in the DASR, b/c its not, his primary job will be creepin' & killin' the same as any Recon Unit in the Mother Corps.  But if during the ITC he fails to be able to learn &perform FID in a successful manner He will never eventually properly learn or excel at UW(also not his primary mission in the DASR but one they plan to be the premier force in).  He may hav been the Sneakiest, Precision Shootinist killer in the Marine Corps but no good for the MSOC's

 
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