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Subject: MARSOC-FORCE RECON
papanik1    9/10/2008 3:46:18 PM
There is a rumor that Force Recon Companies will come back in the active Corps ( they still exist in the reserves) instead of Deep Recon Companies at Battalion level. Also in a month or so there will be a common operators training course for MARSOC personel, ( with some different follow up training after,(depending on assignment to MSOAG or MSOB) but its not clear if and when MSOCs and MSOTs will get to be more interchangeable in capabilities as Special Forces teams currently are. Any info on FR, and MARSOC training and evolving team missions? Right now its hard to imagine someone from MSOAG going to a MSOB unit without lots of extra training. Also does anybody know if diver/airborne/BRC training will be a "must" for all personel of MSOB teams as was the case with FR?
 
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papanik1       10/3/2008 3:44:52 AM
 
I get your point. The truth is I know a lot about the way Army SOF does business and I am trying to figure out how the USMC is going top build its own model.  What you say makes sense but is an inverted model of what the Army does, meaning SF is the older more experienced people, since they are more suitable for UW/FID. Practically I imagine  ITC grads will go to a DASR or FID MSOT depending on prior quals, age, preferance and which parts of ITC are better at. And the coin will have two sides with older DASR people changing over to FID after their tour in DASR.
 
I am very perplexed with how officers fit into this, since its not easy to understand Os career paths generaly in the USMC. 
 
I understand that FR platoon Os were primarily junior captains most of them serving a 2-3 year tour in place of a B-billet, before EWS and Company Command. But I noticed that some got to FR,  INSTEAD of regular Company Command.
 
With MARSOC structure it seems rational for the Corps to have 0302 Captains commanding DASR MSOTs at the junior Captain level, so then they can go to a Company Command , go back to MARSOC for a MSOC CO (major level) tour.
 
But info from MC Gazette is that they go after the B-Billet and for 5 years, loosing opportunity for regular Company Command, and Bat XO/OO positions!
 
Do you know anything about the Os career path in MARSOC?  
 
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SCCOMarine    Kind of long but descriptive   10/14/2008 8:24:13 PM

I get your point. The truth is I know a lot about the way Army SOF does business and I am trying to figure out how the USMC is going top build its own model.  What you say makes sense but is an inverted model of what the Army does, meaning SF is the older more experienced people, since they are more suitable for UW/FID. Practically I imagine  ITC grads will go to a DASR or FID MSOT depending on prior quals, age, preferance and which parts of ITC are better at. And the coin will have two sides with older DASR people changing over to FID after their tour in DASR.


Thats b/c u'r putting the emphasis of Operations on the teams & not the units.
 
Even tho MarSoc doesnt have a specific air component the Marine Special Operations Companies (MSOCs) are the Operational MAGTF formations of MarSoc.
 
W/ that said, it would be the entire deployed MSOC (or if an already depl'd MSOC could not be committed then a similar looking adhoc Purpose Specific formation) would be on the ground running UW missions.  Thats how the Marine Corps views things, thru the lense of the entire Operational Cycle.  Each MSOC is an entire Special Operations Task Force neatly rolled up into a tight but extremely flexible package (both Operationally& Tactically) like any other Marine AG Task Force (MAGTF).
 
I think that is part of what your confused about.  Its hard for u to see where the lines of the missions of the different teams differentiate fr/ each other, begin, or end.  Also where the lines of the areas of responsibility of the Tactical Teams(MSOTs) blend w/those of the Operational Units (MSOCs) as a whole.
 
U are seeing things thru an ARSOC lense, this team does this & this is what they do(period) that team does that & that is what they do(.); this is an SF team they do FID/UW/ABC/XYZ & ABC/XYZ is what they do.
 
MarSoc is not really like that.  MarSoc operates like the Marine Corps operates... very flexible, very Task Organized.  KIM, MarSoc only came out w/ a Uniform Naming Convention (which names this is an MSOT this is its composition blah blah blah) only after it was requested by SoCom.
 
This is b/c Marine operations tend to not be bound by formal structure, it is very plug & play.  This is evident (in the SOF realm) when you read about missions performed by MCSOCOM DET-1.  One mission to reinforce an SF ODA about to be overan in Al Kut was led by an FR Master Gunnery Sgt incl'd a 5man FR tm, 2man CI/HET, 2man SS tm, & a few Marines fr/ the Comm& Log. Support Plt, & 1 Topagraphical Intel guy. 
 
They put the together the exact team they thought needed based on what the SF guys said they needed.  There were many other missions like that incld'ing a big 1 in Najaf w/ a Task Organized tm led by a MSgt.
 
The USMC likes their Units to be very versatile which is why a MEU(SOC) can run the Gambit of 40-50 different mission of varying size & scope and has a Power Projection larger than Combat Brigades 3X their size.  Which translates down to its personnel, which is why the USMC has extensive training requirements for all personnel fr/ Combat Arms to Combat Cameramen.
 
By extension MarSoc has a similar mentality.  U'r picturing the individual MSOTs being responsible for a potential UW situation & thereby the MSOAG MSOTs by virtue of their FID focus.  But it will be the MSOCs responsible for UW.  And they will plug & play & interchange the DASR & MSOAG MSOTs as mission appropriate.
 
I'm telling you in my opinion looking at it fr/ a Marine perspective there will most likely be some sort of progression and/or selection from (for most operators) starting in an MSOAG MSOT and then being selected to move on to a DASR MSOT.  This was the same manner of progression into an FR Operational Plt.
 
You have to remember that the JSOU report stated that FR's capabilities in the 2 areas of DA & SR were on par w/ Tier 1 SMU's.  You just don't build to that w/ guys straight out of ITC, it takes time to develop to that level of DA/SR, unless you alre
 
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papanik1    ITC and Officers   10/26/2008 3:03:13 PM
Thanks SCCOMarine,  I get what you mean and cant realy disagree with your reasoning. I do see things through another SOF lense and I am not very familiar with the Marine way of doing things.
 
Your posts did help a lot for me to understand the "can do" mentality and "provisional" approach the Corps often uses. Should have thought about it by the way the USMC makes provisional Security and PSD units even out of support troops.
 
BTW Got some info that a 6-7 month long ITC (same for every operator in MARSOC) started a few days ago (first iteration).
 
Also, I am a bit confused (see previous posts on that) about USMC officer career paths, especially concerning Recon/ FR and now MARSOC.
 
Got any help for me?
 
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SCCOMarine       10/26/2008 9:27:53 PM
I was in contact w/ a MARSOC recruiter, a Sgt who I knew in SCCO when he was just a LCpl.  He said he was previously in a MSOAG MSOT in Comp A.  He also told me that a SSgt, a real turd, who was also in SCCO was his Team Gunny/Plt Sgt & was about to pick MSgt & is now in the MSOS.
 
To any SCCO Marines out there, since we can't use SOF real names the SSgt liked to be called "Big Rubes" or as we called him "PIG Rubes" & he used to walked around all day calling all Non-Grunts/POGs "F*cking Suck D*cks". 
 
He knew his sh*t Tactically but I can't think of a worse guy to put as an SO Advisor, he was too Cocky & Arrogant; u know one of those guys who walk around w/ ILS (Inflated Lat Syndrome) w/ his arms bowed out b/c his imaginary muscles were so big...
 
Oh well, some how some sh*t manages to float, I could literally write pgs on dumb shit this guy used to do.  There was one where half of the Comp had depl'd to Paraguay & was coming back when some Dumb Shit he had FORGOT to do almost caused the whole C-130 to crash causing the Pilots to have to Lay Over in Vieques, Puerto Rico for a day to recover. 
 
But like I said, Tactically he was very competent so maybe its a wash, I hope.
 
Anyway the Sgt I know told me that although its set for later, like at least 6mths to a yr, they're still not taking Marines w/out a Grunt or Radio MOS to be Operators.  But that when they do he's not sure if they will be allowed to go on to the MSOTs or if they will have to go to the Task Force Enabler Tms that they're setting up to deploy w/& independent of the MSOCs.
 
That would be your Intel Guys; CI, Radio Recon, & Fusion Analysis tms.  JTACs; FACs & ANGLICO Guys.  Comm; Radio, SatCom, etc.  Security; Grunts & K9 Guys.  & EOD.  Most of these guys already depl' w/ the MSOC but he's not sure if when they open the ITC up to all MOS's if the Marines that fit these Billets will be placed in an MSOT or go to an Enabler Tm.
 
Also that right now they're not allowing any Operators to jump fr/ MSOAG to MSOB MSOTs but they are in talks on how they want to do it.  But he said that no Operator will be allowed into a DASR w/out 1st going thru BRC and acquiring the MOS of 0321.
 
But as far as the Officer thing I don't really know much, but if you post the MC Gazette article maybe I can try to interpret what it says.
 
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papanik1       10/27/2008 11:19:53 AM
"no Operator will be allowed into a DASR w/out 1st going thru BRC and acquiring the MOS of 0321"
 
This makes perfect sense to me. But I am curious to see if it will keep happening after a while-with ITC established and evolved.
 
BTW Just today I saw this in the Marine Corps Gazette site:
 

MarSoc Begins Training Course

U.S. Marine Corps Forces, Special Operations Command started its first class of the Marine Special Operations Individual Training Course here, Oct. 6, 2008.

Sixty Marines who successfully completed MARSOC?s assessment and selection process began the new nine-month course designed to prepare Marines to conduct special operations missions in support of the Global War on Terrorism.

The ITC will provide the required capabilities as identified by U.S. Special Operations Command and the MARSOC Commander.

The curriculum, which MARSOC spent the past year developing, will provide entry-level, full spectrum special operations training for the newly-selected Marines.

This course is part of MARSOC?s larger effort to standardize the basic capabilities of Marine Special Operations Forces producing a MARSOF Marine.

The course is a single training track which provides a baseline of skills including essential special operations tactics, techniques and procedures, as well as language and cultural training. "
 
Cant find a way to copy and paste the MC Gazette part of article about Officers in MARSOC but it goes like this
 
- Officers will also have 5 year tours in MARSOC, like enlisted.
 
- They will go in as Captains after their operational forces tour ( does this mean they go in as junior cptns in place of B billet? I think so).
 
- B/c off that they will loose opportunity for regular company/battery command
 
- Then as majors they will get to be MSOC commanders instead of getting an XO, or OO position in a regular Bat. He goes on to make  a point that boards will not select some of them b/c the raters will not be familiar with SOF and will promote regular Infantry Os.
 
But, this path doesnt make a lot of sense. If a tour is 5 years and an Officer goes in MARSOC as a junior Cpt, he will get out just in time to be a major. If he gets back in as a major for another 5 years, hell there is no reason for him to get out again. He will not have the company level or XO, OO experience to lead a Bat.
 
So, I imagine its either 3 year tours for Os like this: Go in as a junior cpt - in place of a B billet -stay for 3- get out get EWS and get a Company command, and then go back in for 2-3 years as a major  (MSOC Command after ILE) and so on.
 
Otherwise its trully better to make a MARSOF Officer  MOS and a career path for them at least until the rank of  O-5 or O-6...
 
But i am not sure what is actually happening.
 
Also I noticed that in the past some captains were getting FR platoon command in place of a B billet (as junior cptns) the same way it works for Recon Platoons, and some others were getting FR command in place of regular infantry company command.
 
And this is confusing me a lot about procedures.
 
In the Army if it is regular infantry, rangers or SF, the way an officer career proceeds is more or less in a standard path.
 
For example, ( b/c it is the closest analogy) an Army  1st Lt gets a Ranger Platoon (if he was a good regular Platoon Officer as a 2nd Lt) and then he can come back as a Captain but first he has to go through the Captains course and a good  "regular" company command. Ranger Company Command will almost always be a "second command (opportunity) for him.
 
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SCCOMarine       10/27/2008 1:15:02 PM
Fr/ what ur relaying he raises some good pts, but w/out reading the article I can't really give u a good answer.  But this is what I can say the subject is very fluid.  This can be approached fr/ so many different angles it would be easy to get lost on Tangents & end up out in left field.
 
Here's an ex.) of how u could come up w/ millions of speculative answers & none could be right:
 
Ex)  The Offs like the Enl. can take the S&A screening & if they pass can actually differ joining MARSOC until months-yrs later.  So w/that being said, 1st Lts could take the S&A lets say 1yr prior to being expected to be in the Zone for Capt. which is another 1-2yr b4 actually pinning on.
 
       So w/ that being the case MARSOC could actually set up a path of suggested assignments w/the Monitors & instead of getting the Marine as soon as he picks up O-3 they get him 2-3yrs later like after EWS & a Co Cmdr billet or maybe a Recon or FAST Co billet I mean their are so many ways to come at this.
 
But I'm guessing fr/ what you've relayed that I don't even think that his main pt was to talk about Offs paths into MARSOC but where will their tour/s in MARSOC leave them after leaving the Command.  The Premise is, and many Offs have good reason to think this, that doing tours w/ MARSOC will end as a detriment to ones career b/c they didn't have the opportunities to take part in the tried & true Command Level Career Advancement Path.  & there are Many example in the Career Officer BoneYard of excellent Recon Cmdrs who never Made it Past O-5/O-6.
 
I, however reject this premise for one main reason.
 
That reason is b/c the ppl who state this fail to look at the reason why 1) Special Assignments like Recon & various others were Career Killers in the Marine Corps as Compared to the Preferred Inf Command Path.  2) What is the diffence btwn those Career Killer Assignments and MARSOC.  3) The Commonalities btwn MARSOC Cmdr billets & Inf Cmdr billets that would not cause them to be Career Killers.
 
Many ppl like to trivialize the reason why Recon & other Inf Offs who took the Specialized Assignments faired so poorly in selection boards and instead of listing all of them I'll just give the actual reason.
 
Its not jealousy or tradition or any particular combo of courses; b/c he could've served as a Recon Co Cmdr, BN XO, took all the Course, whatever.  It is simply this, in the USMC there are 2 types of Commands, the Supporter & the Supported. 
 
Now being that Our MAGTF Concept is very fluid almost all Cmds can find themselves on either Position.  But the Point of Fact is that Overall in the Marine Corps there is only 1 Supported Command and ALL other Commands our Supporters of the Mission of this Command.  That Command is the Infantry.
 
Now what that translates to is that their is only one Truely Independent Thinking & Operating Command in the USMC & if thats the Case then there is only 1 place that truely stresses & prepares Officers to Operate & Command Independently.  B/C all other Commands, including Recon w/all their Special Skills, do only 1 thing & thats support the Mission of the Infantry.
 
W/that said, that is no longer the case b/c now there is another Command t
 
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SCCOMarine       10/28/2008 7:12:18 PM
"no Operator will be allowed into a DASR w/out 1st going thru BRC and acquiring the MOS of 0321"
This makes perfect sense to me. But I am curious to see if it will keep happening after a while-with ITC established and evolved.


I think thats b/c u'r underestimating the Skill and Level of Special Reconnaissance Cirriculum taught at BRC. And Don't get me wrong SR training recieved in the ITC will be on par w/ any recv'd by any other Tier II force.

KIM, SR training recv'd by SEALs & SF is very effective but it is an Additional Skill, part of an Overall training Package. They rec'v some in their Individual Training Phase and Its reinforced in their UTP. But it is not the End All Be All defining portion of their Training, just another part of their Training Evolution. But it is Obviously enough to make them Proficient in it.

This will be similarly true w/the Marines who head thru the ITC and then go on to the MSOAG MSOTs. Like SEALs & SF, their SR training in the ITC & later in their UTP will be Proficient, and thats added to their previous Marine training in Small Unit Tactics. But the SR Skill of an 0321 it does not make them.
 
Like I said, I think u misunderstand this b/c u underestimate the SR Skill Level Taught at BRC. KIM that the SR taught at the BRC IS the End All Be All for being an 0321s. Not meaning its their only training course so it means alot to them, but meaning it is the course that defines their PRIMARY JOB, it is an MOS level Course meaning it is very Technical.
For example FR, SF, & SEALs go thru comprehsive CAS Packages to talk to and direct Aircraft for Airstrikes, but their training is not as in depth as the Tactical Air Control Party Course which certifies the MOS designation JTAC.  They're just Comprehensive but basic Practical Application Courses, not as Technical the actual TACP.
 
Same thing w/the ITC's SR package, it will be a comprehensive Prac App similar to the SR package of SF & the SEALs, but it will nearly as technical or indepth as the MOS designating BRC.
 
Don't think that b/c Marines are in the Recon BNs that they're 0321s, when I got out in '05 there were less than 800 0321 in the Actv Dty Corps.  BRC is not the beginning, but the Culmination of mths to yrs of training and some Marines the Recon BNs never Graduate the Course.   
A common Path in the BNs was a Marine passed the Screening & went on to the Recon Indocrination Plt (RIP) for about a 4wk course learning the same basic SR cirriculum taught in the ITC and to the Tier II units in their SR packages. Fr/there he was in about a 6mth OJT prepping for BRC, but during that time he could go to Jump/SERE/Ranger/etc. When the Training Plt thought he was ready he could -COMPETE- for a school seat at BRC. The top X-many went & only FRs trainees had guaranteed Seats.

And after all that the Failure Rate at BRC is still about 50%. Did it always happen that way, no, b/c like everything in the Marine Corps it was a very fluid process.

LAST POINT-
BRC is an extremely comprehensive course, in '05 it was 10.8wks of the Strictly Technical Aspects of Reconnaissance, Surveillance, & Intelligence Gathering; and I heard its almost 13wks now.  Now thats a 13wk culmination all or nothing course that says this is what I do; like JTAC Course.  Not a 3 or 4wk Prac Applications Package mixed in w/their overall Training.
So this is why I say if u really understood what BRC is u would know that u can't have a DASR element on par w/FR w/out that training & certification.
 
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