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Subject: The SEALs Go Hunting
SYSOP    8/19/2008 5:58:59 AM
 
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mough    slots   8/19/2008 6:20:58 AM
I doubt they will be raiding too many coasties, there are only something like 4-8 slot's open per year, this has more to do with the CG wanting to have the personel to stand up their own "special unit"in a few year's time.
 
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sjdoc       8/19/2008 8:34:08 AM

I doubt they will be raiding too many coasties, there are only something like 4-8 slot's open per year, this has more to do with the CG wanting to have the personel to stand up their own "special unit"in a few year's time.
For what pupose would the Coast Guard need a "special unit" with capabilities comparable to those of the Navy's SEAL force?
It might be a "nice-to-have" element, certainly, but wouldn't it fall rather too much into the realm of Mayberry, North Carolina, standing up a Barney Fife Memorial SWAT Team?
 
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mough       8/19/2008 8:39:57 AM



I doubt they will be raiding too many coasties, there are only something like 4-8 slot's open per year, this has more to do with the CG wanting to have the personel to stand up their own "special unit"in a few year's time.


For what pupose would the Coast Guard need a "special unit" with capabilities comparable to those of the Navy's SEAL force?


It might be a "nice-to-have" element, certainly, but wouldn't it fall rather too much into the realm of Mayberry, North Carolina, standing up a Barney Fife Memorial SWAT Team?

 

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Your guess is as good as mine, but every other branch has ninja's I guess the CG want some too......maybe they would like to make a play for the maritime CT job in a similar way to the FBI has the HRT...who know's, but I do know that officers love pet project's and the cash to see them happen.

 
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WarNerd       8/19/2008 10:11:36 AM



I doubt they will be raiding too many coasties, there are only something like 4-8 slot's open per year, this has more to do with the CG wanting to have the personnel to stand up their own "special unit"in a few year's time.

For what purpose would the Coast Guard need a "special unit" with capabilities comparable to those of the Navy's SEAL force?

It might be a "nice-to-have" element, certainly, but wouldn't it fall rather too much into the realm of Mayberry, North Carolina, standing up a Barney Fife Memorial SWAT Team?

Your guess is as good as mine, but every other branch has ninja's I guess the CG want some too......maybe they would like to make a play for the maritime CT job in a similar way to the FBI has the HRT...who know's, but I do know that officers love pet project's and the cash to see them happen.
 
The similarity between Navy SEAL's and Coast Guard CRS's is that they are extremely motivated individuals in peak physical condition that are highly trained to routinely perform a set of extremely hazardous (i.e. near suicidal for less well prepared individuals) missions involving water.  However, the missions and training are radically different, and the CRS training does not include a combat component.  CRS is NOT a SWAT equivalent.

 If these specialties were Olympic sports then SEAL's would the decathlon while CRS's are the distance swimmers.

 The reason that the Coast Guard worries about the SEAL's recruiting from the CRS's, and that the Navy would like to, is that the pool of individuals with both the mental and physical capabilities required to perform either of these missions with any degree of safety is extremely limited, but highly similar.  And of the two, the mental capabilities are the hardest to find and the most difficult to develop.  Note that even after providing additional physical training the rejection rate in SEAL training only dropped from 75% to 60%.
 
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GOP       8/19/2008 4:19:29 PM

I don't see the USCG losing many Combat Swimmers to the Navy anytime soon. If those guys wanted to become a SEAL, they would have joined the Navy. They have completely different job descriptions, with the USCG job possibly being more hazardous in alot of situations. Totally different mindset required in those jobs. To go from saving people during hurricanes to killing people in MOUT just seems completely different. Equally hazardous and both jobs requires massive cojones, but completely different still. Of course, a few guys may want a change of pace, and they would most likely have what it takes to complete the SEAL pipeline.
 
As far as the USCG's elite force, I thought they already had an elite force with their special boarding teams? I actually can see a need of it, with all the drug interdictions they are doing nowadays along with the GWOT. Of course, I feel that HRT could handle any high-risk interdictions personally (without knowing anything about their true capabilities, of course).
 
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gf0012-aust       8/19/2008 5:22:45 PM


As far as the USCG's elite force, I thought they already had an elite force with their special boarding teams?

VBSS is not necessarily the same as combat swimming though ....
 
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GOP       8/20/2008 1:49:25 AM







As far as the USCG's elite force, I thought they already had an elite force with their special boarding teams?




VBSS is not necessarily the same as combat swimming though ....


No, definitely not. Did some research on their boarding team. Im not disparaging or comparing anyone, but I don't think their VBSS skills are on the same level as HRT or a SEAL Team just based on the fact that their course isn't that long. Thus the need for an "Elite" unit I guess?  

 
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gf0012-aust       8/20/2008 3:29:27 AM


No, definitely not. Did some research on their boarding team. Im not disparaging or comparing anyone, but I don't think their VBSS skills are on the same level as HRT or a SEAL Team just based on the fact that their course isn't that long. Thus the need for an "Elite" unit I guess? 


Different skillsets.  There is an international shortage of decent operators for maritime security work. 
 
exp coasties would be snapped up pretty quickly by private companies.  I'll put myself on a limb and say that in a toss up between an ex coastie and a special who's come from a "specialised" water troop - the maritime security company preference would run with the coastie.
 
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mough       8/20/2008 7:29:58 AM







I doubt they will be raiding too many coasties, there are only something like 4-8 slot's open per year, this has more to do with the CG wanting to have the personnel to stand up their own "special unit"in a few year's time.




For what purpose would the Coast Guard need a "special unit" with capabilities comparable to those of the Navy's SEAL force?



It might be a "nice-to-have" element, certainly, but wouldn't it fall rather too much into the realm of Mayberry, North Carolina, standing up a Barney Fife Memorial SWAT Team?




Your guess is as good as mine, but every other branch has ninja's I guess the CG want some too......maybe they would like to make a play for the maritime CT job in a similar way to the FBI has the HRT...who know's, but I do know that officers love pet project's and the cash to see them happen.


 

The similarity between Navy SEAL's and Coast Guard CRS's is that they are extremely motivated individuals in peak physical condition that are highly trained to routinely perform a set of extremely hazardous (i.e. near suicidal for less well prepared individuals) missions involving water.  However, the missions and training are radically different, and the CRS training does not include a combat component.  CRS is NOT a SWAT equivalent.



 If these specialties were Olympic sports then SEAL's would the decathlon while CRS's are the distance swimmers.



 The reason that the Coast Guard worries about the SEAL's recruiting from the CRS's, and that the Navy would like to, is that the pool of individuals with both the mental and physical capabilities required to perform either of these missions with any degree of safety is extremely limited, but highly similar.  And of the two, the mental capabilities are the hardest to find and the most difficult to develop.  Note that even after providing additional physical training the rejection rate in SEAL training only dropped from 75% to 60%.

I don't believe I mentioned Rescue swimmer's at all, nevermind their difference to combat swimmer's, please don't make out that I said something I didn't....but the CG or at lease an element of the officer corp has had this thing especially since the GWOT was on, that maybe the coasties should take on certain, more "warlike" tasks....agencies like to take on new power's it's one of those thing's, let the knigdom grow
 
 
BTW that 15% increase in guy's passing is huge in SW terms, it's the difference between being able to stand up an extra SEAL Platoon or not.... if the UKSF had a pass rate jump like that, they'd be able to stand the SAS boat troop's back up a hell of a lot faster then they can now..

 
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WarNerd       8/20/2008 1:52:50 PM

BTW that 15% increase in guy's passing is huge in SW terms, it's the difference between being able to stand up an extra SEAL Platoon or not.... if the UKSF had a pass rate jump like that, they'd be able to stand the SAS boat troop's back up a hell of a lot faster then they can now..


The 15% is huge, more than a 50% increase in the graduation rate.
 
But they still are failing 60%, mostly because they cannot mentally aspects of the training.  So, any additional increase in the number of qualified graduates will require programs to increase the mental toughness of the candidates as well as the physical.
 
Does anyone have any ideas about how to do that?
 
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GOP       8/20/2008 2:04:30 PM





No, definitely not. Did some research on their boarding team. Im not disparaging or comparing anyone, but I don't think their VBSS skills are on the same level as HRT or a SEAL Team just based on the fact that their course isn't that long. Thus the need for an "Elite" unit I guess? 







Different skillsets.  There is an international shortage of decent operators for maritime security work. 

 

exp coasties would be snapped up pretty quickly by private companies.  I'll put myself on a limb and say that in a toss up between an ex coastie and a special who's come from a "specialised" water troop - the maritime security company preference would run with the coastie.


Yeah, see I really know very little about their boarding team. What is the difference? Are they better at search and seizure whereas a SBS unit would be better at opposed boarding kind of thing? And why in your opinion would a PMC be more likely to pick up a coastie over say a SEAL or SBS dude?
 
 
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GOP       8/20/2008 11:02:54 PM
Reshtet, what are you talking about? I did read the article, and some articles before this one on other sites. Even if the Navy is going after them, then it still does not change anything about what I said. My point was that I highly doubt that the USCG will lose many rescue swimmers to the Navy. Not enough to make a big difference anyway.
 
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gf0012-aust       8/21/2008 3:44:47 AM


Yeah, see I really know very little about their boarding team. What is the difference? Are they better at search and seizure whereas a SBS unit would be better at opposed boarding kind of thing? And why in your opinion would a PMC be more likely to pick up a coastie over say a SEAL or SBS dude?


skillset issue, again a couple of things, eg search and seizure is not kill or capture
 
PMaritimeC's aren't looking at the same lethality issues.  PMarC's are more interested in deterrence via other means.  eg Pirates get significant intel from tame contacts in ports (eg, crew numbers, manifests, time at sea (denotes likely payroll amount etc...), similarly, they'll know if a vessel is carrying specialist crew members.  That in itself is a deterrent.
 
Deterrent does not mean a need for DA.  It's a bit like getting a gaggle of german shepherds to guard the sheep when an anatolian karabash will do a far more efficient and effective job...
 
sure both types can do the job, but one is a better resource from an overkill or overmatch perspective.
 
my 2c anyway
 
 
you can't use specials for everything, they're discretionary assets.


 
 
 
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SCCOMarine       8/21/2008 10:27:31 PM







I doubt they will be raiding too many coasties, there are only something like 4-8 slot's open per year, this has more to do with the CG wanting to have the personel to stand up their own "special unit"in a few year's time.






For what pupose would the Coast Guard need a "special unit" with capabilities comparable to those of the Navy's SEAL force?






It might be a "nice-to-have" element, certainly, but wouldn't it fall rather too much into the realm of Mayberry, North Carolina, standing up a Barney Fife Memorial SWAT Team?



 



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Your guess is as good as mine, but every other branch has ninja's I guess the CG want some too......maybe they would like to make a play for the maritime CT job in a similar way to the FBI has the HRT...who know's, but I do know that officers love pet project's and the cash to see them happen.




 
 
I haven't read everyones post, so maybe someone may have already said this.  But it should also be kept in mind that the CG is the only one of the 5 branches w/ Arrest Power.
 
So when looking for a reason why the might want to start up a true SOF type force similar to the SEALs, if you keep in mind that 1) they have Arrest Power.  2) like GOP said earliar CG's are heavily involved in Drug Interdictions.  3) w/ their Arrest Authority similar to the FBI's like Moug said they can setup a Maritme CT version of their own HRT.
 
So if you use those 3 you can kind of triangulate on a nice little uniqe niche for a CG SOF level Force. 
 
One who's primary would be Maritime Homeland CT opposite HRT, but can also deploy to possibly relieve the SEALs in their Counter-Narcotics in S. America.
 
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YOUGOTYOURASSKICKED       8/23/2008 12:33:11 AM
I think that would be cool for the CG to have some other SOF teams out there, They would probably be best suited for Anti-Narcotics operations, but yeah that would be cool, and i dont see a reason for the CG to be worried about there rescue Swimmers transitioning to the SEAL teams, after all there still working for the U.S. government, and are still putting their skills to good use, its like a Roman-Greco wrestler to transfer to Collegiate wrestling, but the wrestler still plays for the same school, just not the same coach. i think its more of a worry that they might be understaffed in the rescue swimmers, and since their pretty tough to get, since the training is so hard and most ppl arent up for the task, they dont want to lose to many.



 
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