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Subject: S.U.S.T.A.I.N....Marines In Spaaace!
SCCOMarine    3/14/2008 4:56:47 PM
The Marine Corps has quietly, over the past 6 or 7yrs, been shaping the Forced Entry and Crisis Response capability of the next millenium w/ NASA and Aero-Space Industries. It's called SUSTAIN-Small Unit Space Transport and Insertion. By seizing on the emerging SCRAM-Jet technologies they are in early development w/ the Industry towards a series SCRAM-Jets capable of Deploying 13-20 man Squads of Marines. SCRAM-Jets are Hyper-Sonic Air/Space Craft that break the earth's atmosphere then skim across it at speeds of Mach 4 thru Mach 10. They will be able to deploy a company-sized Expeditionary Unit of DO Capable Marines anywhere in the world in 2HRs or less. The list of missions range fr/ Crisis Response and In-Extremis Hostage Rescue to QRF for SOF, capable of re-inforcing Special Operations Missions world wide at a moments notice.
 
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Yimmy       3/18/2008 7:56:48 PM
I don't see what's so special about space.... they even say tourism in space will start soon.... bus so what?  It's space... there's nothing there!
 
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SCCOMarine       3/19/2008 2:12:52 PM
But the program is goody.  Exactly what are 10-13 guys going to do, once they're on the ground?  And how will they do it?  The Spaced UH-1 is going to land at Mogadishu International; and then the 13 Marines are going to fight their way into the city?  The Lander is going to parachute them into Mogadishu?  And then they will be extracted how?  And the people they rescue will be extracted how?  And this lander, it will be able to fly after the landing?  Or we will extract it how?
I'm sorry this is a "neat" idea in search of a mission....I think it would be cheaper to keep 12 SEALS on ARG and fly them in in a Pave Low than build this system.


I think some of you are missing the point and the mission.  Most deep insertion Helos only carry about 13-20 troops, but nobody sends in just one of them.
CRISIS RESPONSE:
To understand the concept you have to understand the mission, its Crisis Response.  Crisis Response is an Immediate Action Response when the US needs(keyword) forces on the ground(usually small but robust) ASAP flexible enough to react to a mulitple variety of contingencies.
Its not a new mission that ppl are dreaming up, the only thing new is the speed of the response & the transport.
 
The plan is to accommodate a force size of up to Company sized element (my guess would be up to 80 or 100) Marines tailored for the Specific threat. 
 
But thats nothing new, its the same mission already assigned & performed by FAST Co and the MEU(SOC).  Both who can send in a Reinforced Squad on up.  And depending on the mission can tailor it w/
-CI/HET personnel,
-Radio Recon to infiltrate enemy HQ to intercept or disrupt Comm&Data,
-a Weapons section,
-a robust Comm Suite,
-Snipers,
-a DAP element,
 
the list goes on it just depends on the mission, all in a package no bigger than 80. 
 
The point of CR is to react fast & robust enough to avert disaster w/ a small footprint, & if its unavoidable to strike hard enough to buy time.
 
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JFKY    SCCOMarine   3/19/2008 2:32:58 PM
I see so rather than simply a fleet of four space shuttles that cost billions we'll need...u'uuuum lets see, company 80-150 personnel, at 10-13 personnel per vehicle, 6-15 operational hyper-sonic aircraft, and after counting 80% availability we'll need 8 to 19 of these aircraft?  Shuttle program is running at about USD 5 Billion per year, or USD 1.25 Billion per year per shuttle, so we'd get a program cost of  7.5 Billion to USD 23.75 Billion per year?  Pretty pricey for the ability to deliver a light infantry company any where in the world in two hours.
 
 
 And at the end of the day you didn't answer my question(s).
So I'll repeat them, with the proper numbers,
1) Exactly what are 80-150 guys going to do, once they're on the ground?
2) And how will they do it? (Fire support and logistics)
3)  The Space-based UH-1's are going to land at Mogadishu International; and then the 80-150 Marines are going to fight their way into the city?
4)  The Lander is going to parachute them into Mogadishu? 
5) And then they will be extracted how? 
6) And the people they rescue will be extracted how?
7)   And these landers, they will be able to fly after the landing?  Or we will extract it how?
 
It seems that in addition to the space-based light infantry there will need to be CAS and logistics support and then a conventional extraction force of helicopters.  So your USMC MEU(Space) is a fairly expensive addition to the Defense Budget, not a replacement for any portion of it.
 
It's a neat idea, yes, but the economics of it right now, sure make it seem very pricey for the benefits you get.  In your plan we can fight in Iraq and Afghanistan for about 4 months (23.75 Billion as a percentage of the supplemental budget for those campaigns~USD 90 Billion) or we can have a company of the USMC sitting around a launch pad waiting to go on a fleet of hyper-sonic shuttles?  I'm thinking the GWoT and 150,000 troops is the better deal....
 
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SCCOMarine       3/19/2008 2:53:01 PM

But the program is goody.  Exactly what are 10-13 guys going to do, once they're on the ground?  And how will they do it?  The Spaced UH-1 is going to land at Mogadishu International; and then the 13 Marines are going to fight their way into the city?  The Lander is going to parachute them into Mogadishu?  And then they will be extracted how?  And the people they rescue will be extracted how?  And this lander, it will be able to fly after the landing?  Or we will extract it how?
 
I'm sorry this is a "neat" idea in search of a mission....I think it would be cheaper to keep 12 SEALS on ARG and fly them in in a Pave Low than build this system.


MOGADISHU:
Its interesting you bring up the SEALs & the Mog Embassy mission fr/ mid to late year 1990, as if thats who gets the call in a ARG/MEU(that part was left out) on CR missions.
 
In a ARG/MEU the SEAL Strike Plt is actually in reserve in DA/CR/IHR missions to the DA Plt of the MSPF, so they wouldn't get the call anyway.
 
On the mission you named, the only reason the SEALs were used for the mission was b/c it was during the Op Desert Shield. 
 
The Force Recon/DA Plt was performing Deep Reconnaissance in Kuwait & Southern Iraq and the Amphibious Recon Plt(the R&S Element) was performing near Recon for a Potential Amphib Assualt.

Also when retelling the story the SEALs always leave out that they didn't deploy alone but were accompanied by a Reinforced Squad fr/ the MSPF's Trailer Plt.
 
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SCCOMarine       3/19/2008 2:55:30 PM

I see so rather than simply a fleet of four space shuttles that cost billions we'll need...u'uuuum lets see, company 80-150 personnel, at 10-13 personnel per vehicle, 6-15 operational hyper-sonic aircraft, and after counting 80% availability we'll need 8 to 19 of these aircraft?  Shuttle program is running at about USD 5 Billion per year, or USD 1.25 Billion per year per shuttle, so we'd get a program cost of  7.5 Billion to USD 23.75 Billion per year?  Pretty pricey for the ability to deliver a light infantry company any where in the world in two hours.

 

 

 And at the end of the day you didn't answer my question(s).

So I'll repeat them, with the proper numbers,

1) Exactly what are 80-150 guys going to do, once they're on the ground?

2) And how will they do it? (Fire support and logistics)

3)  The Space-based UH-1's are going to land at Mogadishu International; and then the 80-150 Marines are going to fight their way into the city?

4)  The Lander is going to parachute them into Mogadishu? 

5) And then they will be extracted how? 

6) And the people they rescue will be extracted how?

7)   And these landers, they will be able to fly after the landing?  Or we will extract it how?

 

It seems that in addition to the space-based light infantry there will need to be CAS and logistics support and then a conventional extraction force of helicopters.  So your USMC MEU(Space) is a fairly expensive addition to the Defense Budget, not a replacement for any portion of it.

 

It's a neat idea, yes, but the economics of it right now, sure make it seem very pricey for the benefits you get.  In your plan we can fight in Iraq and Afghanistan for about 4 months (23.75 Billion as a percentage of the supplemental budget for those campaigns~USD 90 Billion) or we can have a company of the USMC sitting around a launch pad waiting to go on a fleet of hyper-sonic shuttles?  I'm thinking the GWoT and 150,000 troops is the better deal....


I'll be back in 3hrs I have a class but I'll answer it then.
 
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Yimmy       3/19/2008 3:05:13 PM
A bit off-topic perhaps, but we aren't actually talking about space here are we, but rather high altitude?  As scram-jets require a high speed air-flow to work right?  Or am I mistaken here?

As, in this case, your mach 10 aircraft, in order to get to the other side of the globe in two hours, is going to have to breach multiple (dozens?) of states air-space, which of course would be illegal without prior consent.

 
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bob the brit       3/19/2008 3:18:20 PM

A bit off-topic perhaps, but we aren't actually talking about space here are we, but rather high altitude?  As scram-jets require a high speed air-flow to work right?  Or am I mistaken here?

As, in this case, your mach 10 aircraft, in order to get to the other side of the globe in two hours, is going to have to breach multiple (dozens?) of states air-space, which of course would be illegal without prior consent.


International agreement extends a nation's airspace to 50 miles from the earths surface, just short of low orbit... so technically, the sustain landers/carriers/whatever, wouldn't be breeching air-space rights.
 
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SCCOMarine       3/19/2008 5:34:27 PM

A bit off-topic perhaps, but we aren't actually talking about space here are we, but rather high altitude?  As scram-jets require a high speed air-flow to work right?  Or am I mistaken here?

As, in this case, your mach 10 aircraft, in order to get to the other side of the globe in two hours, is going to have to breach multiple (dozens?) of states air-space, which of course would be illegal without prior consent.



The SCRAM-Jet or 'lander'(all SCRAM-Jets in general) breaks the earth's atmosphere and enters 'low earth orbit'. 
 
Then skims over the atmosphere in a skipping motion, using the atmosphere to spring it back up until re-entry for set down.
 
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Yimmy       3/19/2008 5:57:27 PM
That explains that then!
 
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SCCOMarine    Take this in pieces; pt 1   3/19/2008 7:10:29 PM

I see so rather than simply a fleet of four space shuttles that cost billions we'll need...u'uuuum lets see, company 80-150 personnel, at 10-13 personnel per vehicle, 6-15 operational hyper-sonic aircraft, and after counting 80% availability we'll need 8 to 19 of these aircraft?  Shuttle program is running at about USD 5 Billion per year, or USD 1.25 Billion per year per shuttle, so we'd get a program cost of  7.5 Billion to USD 23.75 Billion per year?  Pretty pricey for the ability to deliver a light infantry company any where in the world in two hours.

COST:
I'm not going to begin to run numbers down on an experimental project, but I can shape a forecast for the sake of argument.
 
1st its not a space 'Shuttle' but a Scram-Jet, an important distinction.  WHY?  B/c a Scram-Jet Brings the economy of Jet aircraft to Low Earth Orbit. 
 
Why? Where did the concept come from?  Passenger Jet engineers realized that we have the engine Technology to not make the next Concorde(Mach 2.5) but to leap past it to Hyper-Sonic Speeds.  The problem is structurally the atmosphere would rip the plane apart.  Which is the reason why the SR-71 Blackbird stretches.
 
Whats the answer?  Make expensive, heavy, Passenger Jets that Stretch?  or Resign to the fact that the atmosphere wins that round and keep aircraft under M-2.5?
 
No, Simple solution; go over it!   Where resistance is not a problem and you can even travel on inertia.  In fact you only need to power the engines everytime you fall out of orbit and need to skip back up.
 
So as far as paying for multi-Billion dollar shuttles, no.  These are Hyper-Sonic Jets that break the atmosphere and are forecasted to be not much more than present day jets. 
 
The Idea was ferrying the rich in small Scram-Jets.
 
The USMC took the Idea applied to their doctrine and open up a dialogue and is shapeing the direction of development, inwhich they should have a proto-type in less than 15yrs.

 
 
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