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Subject: For Mough (or any of the other US Army guys)
static    12/11/2007 5:05:30 AM
Sorry this might go in another section but I know some of you guys better. Can you comment on "branch ownership" as far as enlisted to officer goes in the Army? I have heard that if you enlist and then go to OCS after a year or two, you are guaranteed to get an officer slot for the branch that you came from (infantry, intelligence, communications, whatever) but I'm not sure what current Army policy is. Right now I'm thinking about going in with an intelligence MOS and volunteering airborne to get assigned to a combat unit, but I want to make sure that I am not wasting my time enlisting if I will go "needs of the Army" anyway for my first detail after OCS. According to some of what I've read, the Ranger recruiters are taking intel guys out of AIT and other various places and sending them to Ranger school so they can go serve with the 75th, so I still might get my sixty days of fun and sun.
 
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Horsesoldier       12/11/2007 8:42:13 AM
On OCS, unless I'm mistaken on the process you get to do a wish list of branch assignments, and what you get is needs of the army with an effort made to match you to what you want.  I have no idea what % of guys get their first choice versus second or third choices, or just something utterly random.
 
On the 75th side of your question -- the 75th has a full infantry MTOE, meaning its organized as a standard (more or less) airborne infantry unit.  They have slots for all kinds of jobs besides 11-series infantry guys, to include cooks, mechanics, signal guys, medics, intel guys and a bunch else.  If you are interested in going that route on enlistment, my recommendation would be to get your assignment to the 75th guaranteed in your contract.  The Rangers do send recruiters out to AIT posts to try and pick up any guys they have shortages for, but you're not assured they'll be there and that you'll get a slot with them going that route.  With it written into your contract, you'll get a ticket to RIP (and airborne).
 
As far as Ranger School goes, you won't get that straight out of AIT.  You'll be assigned to one of the battalions (or regimental HQ, I suppose) with the expectation that you'll go to Ranger School at some point after you get there.  Attendance of Ranger School is not required for infantry guys or support guys to be assigned to, and operational, with the 75th (at least for junior enlisted guys -- officers and NCOs have to have it).  Most guys, as far as I know, go to Ranger School when they are E-4s (you can't make E-5 without it in the 75th).
 
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static       12/12/2007 12:54:09 AM
Thanks for the information.  From what I understand though the only way to get Ranger school in your contract is to go the opt 40 route which is exclusively reserved for 11 series MOSes.  That is definitely an option, however I would prefer to go the intelligence route for a number of reasons, mostly concerned with career choices post-military.  If I can get Ranger school, airborne, and a shot at tier 1 sometime down the road I think that would be the way to go.  Plus I've heard some whispers over at the "other SOF site" about SOCOM opportunities out of the schoolhouse for enlisted intelligence folks, but nothing specific.

My primary concern right now is some hardware that I have in my ankle from when I broke it about ten years ago.  From what I've read in the regs this is an automatic DQ from airborne, you can get it waivered but I'd rather not have to deal with that since my vision is already borderline and stacking them up sounds like a bad idea.  Anyway I go talk to the surgeon next week about a fracture or something I got over the summer, so I'll see about getting it removed.

 
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Horsesoldier       12/12/2007 12:32:10 PM

 

From what I understand though the only way to get Ranger school in your contract is to go the opt 40 route which is exclusively reserved for 11 series MOSes.

Things may have changed (OldGrunt might know), but back in the day (early 90s) I could have sworn I went through basic training with a couple guys who had enlisted with Ranger-specific contracts with some kind of commo MOS (I want to say they were basic 31Cs).  They kind of stand out in my mind because some of the drill sergeants gave them character building special attention because they were heading to Airborne and RIP after a trip to Fort Gordon for AIT.
 
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dirtykraut       12/12/2007 10:40:04 PM
You get to list your top 3 choices. The army will take them into consideration as well as the needs of the army. You will most likely get one of your 3 choices, and while there is no empiracle data on this, most officers I ask say that they got their second choice. In ROTC, it is dependant on grades and PT scores, I would imagine that for OCS, your performance in the enlisted side would be most important. The better your performance, the more likely you are to get your first choice.
 
As far as Ranger school goes, besides getting an option 40 with RIP in your contract (you will most likely go to Ranger school in your first 3 years in the regiment), the best way to get a slot is to branch Infantry, and after OCS, and your Infantry Officer Basic Course, you will be able to attend Ranger School, as most Infantry officers are tabbed. However, infantry is one of the more competitive branches (quite possibly the most competitive), along with all the other combat arms branches and the Military Intelligence branch. That is quite different from the enlisted side, where all the infantry requires is a pulse.
 
You can be an officer in the 75th or SF, but you have to be a Captain before going to either ROP (Ranger Orientation Program) or the 18A SFQC. Remember though that officer positions in SOF units are generally temporary and are very staff oriented. I would imagine an intel MOS would only help you if you wanted to make it into the MI branch after OCS. But you could also choose to do what you want while you are enlisted and worry about your officer branch after OCS.
 
Just out of curiosity, do you want a career in the military or a career in government service in general? If it is the latter, I would suggest going to ROTC or a service academy, branch intel (MI for the army) serve a term or two, and submit an application to one of the various intelligence agencies. If it is the former, and you want to work your way into an SOF unit, enlist with an option 40. If you find that you either do not like the army, or do not want to go on to either Airborne school or RIP, you can serve in an infantry unit for the remainder of your term, and get that free college education, if worst comes to worst. My personal suggestion to you if you want to go down that route is to enlist, not with an option 40, but with airborne in your contract, request Fort Bragg or Vincenza, Italy as a duty station and you will be an infantryman in either the 82nd or the 173rd airborne brigade. This way, you get to know what the army is like, experience the high standards of an airborne unit, and decide if you want to go on to RIP or SFAS. I don't suggest option 40's or 18x contracts to anyone unless they are absolutely sure it is exactly what they want. In the 75th your life will be very fast paced, and the constant training and high op tempo can take it's toll on those who do not really know what they are getting into, who the regiment usually kicks out anyways.
 
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static       12/14/2007 2:36:55 AM


Just out of curiosity, do you want a career in the military or a career in government service in general? If it is the latter, I would suggest going to ROTC or a service academy, branch intel (MI for the army) serve a term or two, and submit an application to one of the various intelligence agencies. If it is the former, and you want to work your way into an SOF unit, enlist with an option 40. If you find that you either do not like the army, or do not want to go on to either Airborne school or RIP, you can serve in an infantry unit for the remainder of your term, and get that free college education, if worst comes to worst. My personal suggestion to you if you want to go down that route is to enlist, not with an option 40, but with airborne in your contract, request Fort Bragg or Vincenza, Italy as a duty station and you will be an infantryman in either the 82nd or the 173rd airborne brigade. This way, you get to know what the army is like, experience the high standards of an airborne unit, and decide if you want to go on to RIP or SFAS. I don't suggest option 40's or 18x contracts to anyone unless they are absolutely sure it is exactly what they want. In the 75th your life will be very fast paced, and the constant training and high op tempo can take it's toll on those who do not really know what they are getting into, who the regiment usually kicks out anyways.

Well you certainly do ask the tough questions.  Let me preface this with the fact that I am assuming a lot about what MI guys do when attached to airborne units, as digging up information on the day-to-day of what they do has been difficult.

The short answer is I don't know.  The long answer is complicated and involves a number of factors, I will try to outline it without putting everyone to sleep.  I have talked to some CIA people about getting jobs over there but pretty much everyone came from the DI side so its hard to get a handle on what is available for DO/NCS apart from what I have read in books.  DO is where I originally wanted to end up, but the more I read about it the less impressed I was.  It seemed all the really cool James Bond stuff was either contracted out locally or handled by ex military T1 types, it seemed like everyone else was just trying to make friends and get them to talk.

So I started reading and trying to figure out my options there, which are mainly Army or Navy.  My eyesight isn't within spec for the Navy so the SEAL route is out, and likely the USMC as well unless I hit it as a straight 0311 with a waiver (i.e. no recon/force).  Which makes me think CAG might be out the window as well. So that leaves a certain "activity" which shall not be named, which sounds like it does some cool stuff.  Plus the fact that you get a shot at CAG regardless of MOS, makes me think that intelligence was the way to go.  I could dedicate 4-8 years, get my shot at selection(s), probably be told to go home, and have some relevant intel-related work in should I decide to pick up with the government post-military.

Long-term is still up in the air which is why there is so much waffling on my part.  I have to take at least a one year break from school (graduating in the spring, so no ROTC) because I haven't taken the GRE or LSAT yet.  I would like to go to law school once all is said and done and have the GPA to do so as is, but of course if I ever made it to Group I think I would stay as long as possible.  But that is a long, long, long way down the road and I realize that.

So its a somewhat complicated situation.  There are a few more factors which are difficult to explain, but that's where it stands now.


 
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dirtykraut       12/14/2007 1:35:24 PM
I expected a complicated answer. It's tough to make such a big decision. Personally I think we would do well to have more orientation programs like the British. The brits have the "meet the marines" schpeel that highschool and college students go to get a fell for what life might be like as a Royal Marine.
 
The only orientation kind of program I know of is the US Army's Leader's Training Course, which is for ROTC cadets who did not join in the first two years of Military Science in college. It is a 4 week course that teaches everything cadets in the first 2 years of ROTC learn: basic military skills. What you could do, is go to law school and ROTC after you complete LTC. LTC is an introduction to the mlitary/officer training course with absolutely no obligation. If you choose to contract afterwards, you will only have 2 years of ROTC to do and a 5 week LDAC in the summer to get your comission. You could fix it so that you finish law school and ROTC at the same time.
 
Also, have you ever considered the direct commissioning route? Direct commissions I know are offered to doctors and lawyers in the military, with advanced rank once you commission. You could get your law degree, and you would be a shoe in for a direct comission, which means you will go straight to OCS. I think lawyers and doctors are commissioned as Captains as well.
 
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static       12/17/2007 11:57:31 PM

I expected a complicated answer. It's tough to make such a big decision. Personally I think we would do well to have more orientation programs like the British. The brits have the "meet the marines" schpeel that highschool and college students go to get a fell for what life might be like as a Royal Marine.

 

The only orientation kind of program I know of is the US Army's Leader's Training Course, which is for ROTC cadets who did not join in the first two years of Military Science in college. It is a 4 week course that teaches everything cadets in the first 2 years of ROTC learn: basic military skills. What you could do, is go to law school and ROTC after you complete LTC. LTC is an introduction to the mlitary/officer training course with absolutely no obligation. If you choose to contract afterwards, you will only have 2 years of ROTC to do and a 5 week LDAC in the summer to get your comission. You could fix it so that you finish law school and ROTC at the same time.

 

Also, have you ever considered the direct commissioning route? Direct commissions I know are offered to doctors and lawyers in the military, with advanced rank once you commission. You could get your law degree, and you would be a shoe in for a direct comission, which means you will go straight to OCS. I think lawyers and doctors are commissioned as Captains as well.

Definitely some good options but I keep stepping further away from the DA role, which is the primary reason for joining the military.  This all started out as sort of a thing to do between my undergrad and law school to get some experience but the more I work on it the more amorphous it becomes.  Anything more that 4-8 years out of school becomes questionable as the likelihood I will go back decreases quite a bit after that point.

I thought about going the JAG route (don't know if that's what its called in the Army), I have a friend who is going Corps and attending OCS over the summer, and getting them to pay for school.  But she isn't really looking for the DA thing either.  Ideally I would do my 4-8 year stint and go to law school and then come back and go JAG as a prior service.  I don't know if that is a viable option or not though.  Mostly I just need to sit down and really figure out where it is I want to go and what I want to do, and stick with it.
 
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static       5/29/2008 2:02:43 AM
And another thing!  Just a few days after the fact...

Out of curiosity, how does commissioning work with the Ranger battalions?  Say I join the Army as an officer, am I still reserved a slot at Ranger school (i.e. is opt. 40 only for enlisted)?  And, assuming I make it through OCS and Ranger school, would I be assigned to a battalion as a 2LT or would I go to another infantry unit until I gained some experience?  Also, would Ranger school or OCS come first in the pipeline?
 
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Horsesoldier       5/29/2008 8:25:37 PM

And another thing!  Just a few days after the fact...

Out of curiosity, how does commissioning work with the Ranger battalions?  Say I join the Army as an officer, am I still reserved a slot at Ranger school (i.e. is opt. 40 only for enlisted)?  And, assuming I make it through OCS and Ranger school, would I be assigned to a battalion as a 2LT or would I go to another infantry unit until I gained some experience?  Also, would Ranger school or OCS come first in the pipeline?


If I recall correctly, platoon leaders in the 75th have to have already satisfactorily completed a stint as a platoon leader in a Big Army unit before they're even eligible to serve in the 75th -- and then you're looking at some truly fierce competition with hundreds of potential applicants all vying for a handful of slots.  I don't think there's any way to come in directly off the street into the 75th as an officer -- the only guys I've ever heard of getting (unofficial) preference for officer billets in the 75th are former enlisted guys who may be given a chance to "come home" after going to OCS, or getting out and doing ROTC, etc.
 
If you go in directly for comissioning, you'd do OCS first.  If you branch Infantry or another combat arms branch, there's a pretty good chance you'd get a Ranger School slot shortly after completing OCS and your branch's Officer Basic Course, though. 
 
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static       6/4/2008 4:42:44 PM
Well I'm pretty close to deciding.  I already talked to the Navy and they said that while I could get in on a waiver for my eyesight, all four NSW options are out as I'm not eligible for laser corrective surgery.

I've been going back and forth between the Army and Marines.  Personally if I am going to be "regular military" I would rather do so in the Marines than the Army, but again that is just personal preference.  However the Army has pretty much all the cool SOF units outside the Navy (USMC recon/MARSOC is out as I am pretty sure they require corrective surgery as well). 

So I was hoping some of you guys with "exposure" to Army T1 units/people could chime in here, as it is my ultimate goal.  My eyesight isn't actually that bad (20/70 and 20/40), its primarily my refractive error in one eye (+9.00) that puts me over the limit.  I am wondering if this is an automatic DQ for the big boys or if they will make an effort to accommodate you assuming you pass selection.  It seems that they have no shortage of people who are trying out, so they would prefer soldiers without physical profiles as opposed to those who have issues.

 
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