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Subject: Bravo two zero
GOP    8/26/2007 2:12:45 PM
Whatsup guys? What is the story on bravo two zero? I haven't read the book, but everything I read seems to be either hotly contested or unsure. I mean, the SAS Team Leader Mcnab seem to have either lied on numerous occasions, "stretched" the truth, gotten confused, or other members of the team are lying. Example: He claims to have covered 12km to get to a dry wadi, but other accounts say the team only went 2km. Also, it doesn't seem normal for a SOF team, especially of the SAS' caliber, to be captured. Did they surrender? I just can't see that. That would be a disgrace to the SAS wouldn't it? Now, don't take me as badmouthing the SAS Team, because I obviously am in no position to do that. I'm just a teenager, and those guys are obviously some of the best SOF guys on the planet, but something just doesn't add up to me. I don't really know or understand the story.
 
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GOP       8/27/2007 10:09:35 PM

Oh yes SM is also pretty small, but if you say it to his face, he will kick your ass....unless your very fast

Is this serious or sarcasm? Did you find this out the hard way ?
 
 
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gf0012-aust       8/27/2007 10:20:45 PM


What does PNG mean?


persona non grata - ie an unwelcome individual.

 
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Horsesoldier       8/28/2007 1:29:59 AM
 


Yeah, I used E&E incorrectly I believe. I obviously meant evade, but I have heard "E&E" used many times to describe that kind of situation.
 
Don't sweat it.  You used it the way most everyone in the SOF community and those parts of the conventional military the worry about such things would use it.

Yeah, please don't take what I said about the captured/surrender thing as a knock on them, I was just curious about that. I guess it all depends on the situation.There is no way I'd surrender to Al-Qaeda/Taliban/Insurgents, but a government military with some form of standards is different.
 
Yeah, it's definitely situational, though sadly we don't tend to fight people (even organized militaries and "state level actors" and all that) who really play nice with POWs.  Still, as bad as it was in the Hanoi Hilton, for instance, none of those guys got the "orange jumpsuit and off with your head" treatment.  (Which is certainly not to say that it did not suck to be them.)
 
What I can't understand is how none of the guys who wrote books seem to be able to give an honest to God, accurate account of what happened. It seems to me that an event that big would enable someone to remember what really happened, I mean it all seems like everyone is putting their own spin on things. And by spin, I mean their own agenda to make themselves look better then they were or a vendetta to make someone else look bad.
 
Pretty typically human, I'd say.  Start with the fact that no two people will ever recall any incident the same way (some of the LEOs who post here can, I'm sure, provide you with some distressing stories about the reliability of eyewitnesses to crimes, for instance) -- and that's even assuming everyone involved has an equally thorough participation in everything that happened.  Then layer on top of that whatever agendas may be around -- "I was in charge, and you can see I did not screw up" versus "I wasn't in charge, and the people in charge did screw up" etc.  Imperfect recollection plus differing agendas gives you as many different versions of the story as there are participants and, then later, researchers.
 
The B20 story is not really remarkable in that respect.  Look at the open source accounts of Operation Anaconda and who, where, and when mistakes were claimed to have been made -- claims conflict and books are basically being written to counter arguments from other books, etc.  The same can be done with any number of other military operations or whatever else.  In a defeat, you'll have a rush of people who are trying to demonstrate how they were uninvolved, and in a victory you'll have a mess of folks who say it was all their efforts, etc. 
 
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mough       8/28/2007 7:48:15 PM



Oh yes SM is also pretty small, but if you say it to his face, he will kick your ass....unless your very fast


Is this serious or sarcasm? Did you find this out the hard way ?

 

No he's pretty short, 5'10 around that mark, nothing remarkable looking about him, but then these sorts of people never do look out of the ordinary

 
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mough       8/28/2007 7:49:53 PM
I should have said, short to me...probably just below average, I'm on the taller side of things so, most people look smaller to me
 
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GOP       8/28/2007 8:26:00 PM

I should have said, short to me...probably just below average, I'm on the taller side of things so, most people look smaller to me


I'm 6"2, so I understand that. However, I'm not really that tall either.
 
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bob the brit       8/28/2007 8:52:27 PM

I would take everything in all of those books with a pinch of of salt, Mcnabb's (I hate calling him that, but his real name will get me a visit from Mr Solicitor....lets just call him SM)Book was as they say "sexed up" by the publishers, God knows why they felt the need, but they put in a huge body count out of a Rambo movie, ridiculous (the whole bit with the mental dentist for example), they obviously felt it would bore people to not have contacts every few pages, plus all the stuff about Vince Phillips have made him PNG at the Regiment, he does not seem to care though

Chris Ryans book, was less over the top, he really did E&E like he said, although there are bit's mildly sexed up, he also has a mutual dislike for SM.....less up his own arse then SM too

Micheal Asher...hmm he set out with 2 agendas, one noble one not so much, the noble one to find where Vince Phillips died ect, and build a small memorial for him, good stuff, the other was to disprove SM's book as much as possible, did he?, yes in some small parts, in others no, for instance his quaint love affair with Arab and Bedouin culture is good in of itself, but he gets carried away, ie in his Belief they won't lie, so he takes what they say as the truth, for all his time spent among them, he should at least know a Bedouin will lie if he believe he needs to...or if he wants too...what he was more convincing at was disproving the large distence SM said they traveled ect


you have to take these things for what they are, the recollections of different people in times of great stress and uncertainty...humans even highly trained expeirenced ones are not great recollectors of perfect information



about the capturesd/surrender thing...it happenes, highly trained dedicated does not equal suicidel for no reason

naughty naughty mough, SM would not be pleased. then again only i know what you mean, and what's this about 5'10" being short, i'm 5'10" you lanky nutter, bet you looked real good in a noddy suit
has anyone read books by "cameron spence"? (you know of serious don/t you mough?)
bugger... all this talk makes me want a pseudonym

 
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bob the brit       8/28/2007 8:59:55 PM
what i don't understand about that silly pratt Ryan, is that he shows his face un-pixalated yet still hides behind that 'wanker of a name' alias
or maybe 'mcnab' doesn't have his face pixalated but rather just a case of extreme acne? who knows?
i heard the muppet was on richard and judy a while back
wish i could have seen that one
 
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GOP       8/28/2007 9:30:20 PM

what i don't understand about that silly pratt Ryan, is that he shows his face un-pixalated yet still hides behind that 'wanker of a name' alias

or maybe 'mcnab' doesn't have his face pixalated but rather just a case of extreme acne? who knows?

i heard the muppet was on richard and judy a while back

wish i could have seen that one


So, what I have never understood is why the names and such of retired SAS guys are false.
Also, why are names of active duty guys false? Never understood that, maybe Im missing something obvious.
 
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bob the brit       8/28/2007 9:49:13 PM




what i don't understand about that silly pratt Ryan, is that he shows his face un-pixalated yet still hides behind that 'wanker of a name' alias



or maybe 'mcnab' doesn't have his face pixalated but rather just a case of extreme acne? who knows?



i heard the muppet was on richard and judy a while back



wish i could have seen that one




So, what I have never understood is why the names and such of retired SAS guys are false.

Also, why are names of active duty guys false? Never understood that, maybe Im missing something obvious.

there's some opsec/information act inplace currently, thus real names cannot be published (obviously the author himself can use there own name, but not that of others they are referring to... unless they are deceased then it's fine (obviously because the mod prints the name of the deceased SAS or not)) i however am not bound to such act as i left before it was fully implemented, but as mough pointed out i don't want a visit from mr solicitor, i've had enough of that at my current business


 
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