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Subject: On the intel side
static    8/5/2007 1:34:52 AM
I've been lurking for a while and it looks like there might be a few people on here who could answer my question so I thought I would give it a shot. Most of the paths to standard SOF from the four branches are pretty well laid out and can be found with a little research. The Army however has the FOG/ISA/Orange/whatever they are called this week, which is a little less transparent. From reading some of the threads here and elsewhere about ISA I understand that this is rightfully so; these guys seem to be involved in some real ninja-sh*t. Since my first year in college I have been interested (more like obsessed) in getting on with a tier 1 unit. My initial plan was with the SEAL/NSW route since they are so high-profile. After reading Haney's book about CAG however I sort of changed my mind and decided I would go Army, but there is the four years or so in a Ranger batt first and to be honest, if I am going to do some gregularh infantry time first I would prefer to go USMC and try for recon into force/MSOC. My problem however is primarily my vision. I am 20/100 and 20/40 correctable to 20/20 but my hyperoperia is and +9/+6 which is an automatic DQ for the Navy in general and is too far out to be treatable by PRK according to my optometrist. It might be waiverable, but no guarantees. Other than that no problems, coming out of college with a dual political science/Asian studies major and a 3.5 GPA, Ifm in shape, run, lift weights, etc. etc. Anyway to cut to the chase, I donft know if I am ever going to be able to get into a tier 1 assault/CT outfit if I canft pass the vision requirements for a tier 3 unit. I would hate to put 4-6 years in only to find out that I am not eligible and just become the neighborhood commando instead. I have always been interested in the intel side too, but everyone I talk to here at school keeps trying to push me down the CIA analyst path, which to be honest is something Ifm not interested in; if I canft get some kind of action then I need to start looking at doing something else. So, I was wondering if anyone could tell me if some of the gcool guysh on the military intel side draw only from combat units or if I went in enlisted with an intel MOS I could try out for some of their selection courses later on. Also, does the Navy/USMC have anything comparable to what the Army has? I was under the impression that they were getting information from the DIA among others, but now that Rumsfeld is out Ifm not sure how the intel collection is being handled at the DoD. Sorry to drag that out so long, but I thought it would help to give people some background about routes that I have already considered. Also, I know tier 1 stuff usually is off-limits, so I am trying to dance around the issue as best possible without stepping on anyonefs toes. Thanks for your help.
 
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GOP       8/5/2007 5:44:59 AM
#1 - We will NOT discuss the ISA on this site.
 
# 2 - The Teams and Force Recon are NOT a "Tier 1" unit. DEVGRU,  CAG, "Brand X", and I believe I am forgetting one somewhere.
 
#3 - Don't EVER take this attitude of "if I have to do regular infantry work, then I'll do this", because the first step toward getting on that Tier 1 unit is being the best at your job, being extremely tough, being smart, being fit, having the right people around, and being lucky. If you want to make on CAG, then you are going to have to put in work as a grunt most likely. Be the best infantrymen in your unit. Go to Ranger school. Pass. Go into the 75th Rangers. Be the best Ranger. Go through CAG selection. Pass. Be the best Operator in CAG. And so on. Pick a unit and a goal, and do everything in your power to succeed.
 
#4 - Don't EVER use the word "Neighborhood commando" again. Those guys are light years beyond you at this point, you are just a college student. I'm just a highschooler. We haven't even made it through boot yet. We are shit. These "neighborhood commando's" (as you call them) are way above us at this point, and deserve our respect.
 
#5 - As far as your vision requirement, you might have to face the reality that it aint going to happen. I am in a similar way with a heart/adrenal gland issue. Have a backup plan. Always have a backup plan.
 
#6 - Physically, you better be able to run, swim, carry a pack, do high rep sets of pushups/situps/pullups/flutterkicks/etc, have alot of power, and have a conditioned body (meaning a body that won't get injured during training).
 
#7 - Every branch has an intel service. What that involves is probably much more mundane tasks filled with tons of paperwork, administrative bs, oversight, and being surrounded by less motivated people. Just a fact as I see it. If you want to work in intel if the military thing doesn't work out, then look at the FBI and CIA. FBI has intel, counter intel, and counter terrorism. CIA obviously has many more positions.
 
Now, don't get caught up into the whole hollywood "Delta force" crap. The bottom line is as a Tier 1 operator (sorry for dropping "operator" mough ), that you will not get paid much, you will have almost no family life, NO ONE will know about your work at all (and if they do then you are out of the unit), the training will be extremely intense, you may find yourself doing things that go against your moral compass, you may find yourself doing things that you feel are mundane and boring, and you may be put in situations by higher ups that you feel are ridiculous (higher ups typically don't understand Tier 1 units or how they operate, and alot of officers in SOCOM like to propose flashy hollywood op plan shit that gets your guys killed). Sit down, and really think if this is what you want to do, or if you only want to do this because it looks cool and makes you look badass. Remember, no one outside of the guys in your unit and a handful of others will know you are in a tier 1 force and what you do. 
 
 
 
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static       8/5/2007 10:36:50 AM

Well I think you misinterpreted a few of my points so let me address some of your concerns.  I know I am new here but I am not new to the concept of what SOCOM and JSOC is about.  I didn’t want to make my first post any longer so let me elaborate on some things.

 

#1 – I know.  Nobody talks about ISA and rightfully so.  I’m not looking for operational details about them or anybody else, just asking if the pipeline for some of the less-known intel units comes from the intel side or the combat side, and if the Navy has anything comparable.

 

#2 – Again, I know.  You can’t go tier 1 right into the military.  Generally you go infantry or tier 3 first, and if you are good enough you might get asked to try out.  Never heard of “Brand X” though unless you are talking SAD/MSP or whatever, but they are CIA and not military.

 

#3 – I have no problem with infantry work and putting my time in before I try to move onto something better.  Ranger batts are bad-ass, don’t get me wrong.  The point of that statement was that if I am going to do infantry stuff first, I would rather do it in the corps than the army.  FR/MSOC isn’t tier 1 but there are options with the CIA and DIA after putting in 12 years or so with the USMC that I believe would open up.

 

#4 – This was relayed to me in jest by one of my ROTC friends and I think you missed what I was trying to say (or I missed what I was trying to say, it was late…).  Anyway it was something along the lines of “Think about your career.  You have college loans to pay off.  Infantry shit is cool but if you never go any farther than eight years of enlisted infantry (i.e. don’t make it through selection), it really doesn’t help you all that much with a related job outside the military down the road, unless you want to be a neighborhood commando.”

 

#5 – Yeah, sucks.  I saw, even with my horrible vision, that you were in a similar situation.  I have plenty of plans though, don’t worry.

 

#6 – Good to go here.

 

#7 – I’m hoping some people from the intel side can chime in here on what daily life is like because doing the administrative stuff is something that I am not too fond of.  I know it has to be done but if that’s all you do, then its not something I really am interested in.  CI work would be a blast but I believe they closed that MOS in the Army a year or so ago and all the CI people are now fed from the HUMIT MOS.  I talked to some people from the CIA when they were on-campus about getting a job but again, they are looking mostly for analysts and people with graduate degrees or military time.  For DO/NCS it’s the same from what I understand, but no one from the operations side has ever showed up to answer questions.  FBI isn’t something I’m really interested in either as I really want to go overseas, about the only other agency that I would consider working for would be the secret service.

 

I know there are a lot of posers and 13 years olds who want to be “d3lta ninja snipers” so I understand there is an amount of hostility in addressing the same questions over and over again.  This is something that I have had a serious interest in for 4+ years now however and is not just a passing fad for me.  I understand (for the most part) what is involved in this type of work and that its not a Chuck Norris movie.  I was just hoping someone could shed some light on what happens on the intel side of things action-wise, since it seems even the non-“special” elements of it are rarely talked about in comparison to all the SOF talk.

 

Anyway maybe you can understand my situation a little better now, I am trying to refrain fro dumping my whole life story on here and still convey that this is more or less something I am considering as a career and so

 
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static       8/5/2007 11:19:56 AM
Just to clarify, I am not looking for specific information about ISA.  Maybe I should have left that out of my first post, I mostly just threw it out there as an example.  Its just that there really isn't much information about what the military intelligence community does apart from basic MOS descriptions and I was wondering if I signed for that MOS, would I be able to do more than dissemination and briefings.
 
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GOP       8/5/2007 3:07:04 PM
Sorry if I came across like I was preaching to you man, I think I may have come across the wrong way. Anyway, as an intel MOS in the military means you are most likely going to be working a desk job. Intel in the military is much different, because alot of times you are trying to locate ships, troop formations, etc...alot of SIGINT is used for this. Going behind enemy lines aint happening much, and most recon is done by SOF units.
 
USMC infantry and Army infantry is almost interchangeable. If you want to be in a Tier 1 unit, then I think you should look at the Army, Navy, and AF routes. You don't have to do regular infantry duty in any units if you don't want to, you could go 18X.
 
"Brand X" is probably one of the least known Tier 1 units in the US. They are in AFSOC/JSOC. Although their name has probably changed and I think they might be "Special Tactics 21" nowadays.
 
As far as infantry not helping you with any related jobs in the civilian world, that is just plain wrong. It will allow you to get on in law enforcement, (if you go the USMC route) it would get you on the FBI's tactical recruitment program which would put you on the fasttrack to HRT selection in 3 years, it helps your leadership skills, etc.
 
I wouldn't discount the FBI just yet. If you want to track down terrorist in the US, then the Counter-terrorism thing is the way to go. It can be pretty action packed dude. Although like all intel job it involves alot of paper work and administrative bullcrap.
 
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static       8/5/2007 11:15:15 PM

No worries, its understandable with the amount of people who want to be in some super-squirrel unit until they realize that it actually takes work.  You bring up some interesting points so let me see if I can hit them all.

As far as the 18x route, I think it’s a good deal and I’m glad the Army did it.  It works out well for them too, since most people wash out of the pipeline at some point and end up in line units, which is where they really need them.  I have thought pretty hard about going this way but I don’t really get all that fired up about the UW stuff.  I’m still relatively young so I am thinking more along the lines of DA missions, which is more of a Ranger task on the Army side.  Plus I heard that a lot of the SF guys end up going to Ranger school anyway, and if I ended up going to Ranger school I would rather end up in the battalions than an SF A-team.

The USMC and the Army are both seeing a lot of action right now in Iraq and Afghanistan, but I have always wanted to be a Marine.  Just a personal thing.  I know that they don’t have the equivalent of what the other branches bring to the table in terms of SOF but I am willing to deal with that if there are opportunities in the government doing tier 1 type stuff after I get out.  The teams are still a good option, although for different reasons than what I started out with, as they seem to get more DA work than the Recon guys.  My biggest issue is that if I end up getting dropped I could end up chipping paint somewhere, which is definitely not my idea of fun.  Its easy to say that I’ll make it through BUD/S and SQT no problem, but the odds are against me and it would be foolish to think otherwise.  At least in the corps you get dropped back to an MEU or wherever you came from.  However I still run up against the vision thing with both these options.

The FBI is getting their share of work now as well, however I can’t really cut it in a occupation predicated around constitutional and federal law.  I have the grades to prove it.  Plenty of people have tried to get me to do this as well, but if its not something that I am 100% fired up about I feel like I should be doing something else.  Same thing applies for all other options above as well.

 
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GOP       8/6/2007 1:18:07 AM
Quite honestly, SF is big time into DA missions. The whole "SF=UW, SEALs=DA" thing is a major misconception and extremely oversimplified (not saying you buy into that, I'm sure you don't). SF does a ton of DA work, and their CQB tactics are more advanced than the SEAL Teams (more advanced does not necessarily mean more effective though). In Iraq, SF is doing a ton of DA doorkicking ops, and the SEAL teams are doing alot of UW ops aswell. So that is entirely a misconception.
 
Personally, I'm not going NSW. I've recently changed my mind after some 'soul searching'. I'm not going to risk chipping paint or scrubbing floors if I get injured or dropped. I'm going either USMC, Army, or Coastguard. Probably Army.
 
I totally understand about the FBI man, if it isn't what you want to do then don't do it. I'd only go FBI for a chance at HRT or counter terrorism myself.
 
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mough       8/6/2007 3:45:56 PM
Gop, my advice to you is, go Army be a good infantryman, go for the Ranger regiment, then see where you go from there, there's even a semi sneaky unit in the 75th, called the RRD, they do some cool shit too, maybe you'll enjoy the Regiment and stay there, maybe you'll move on the other units more specialised, it's a bigger world then the navy where your choice is SEAL's or paint inspector*, the Army is a lot more forgiving of things then the Navy, they navy can be picky or sometimes just downright peevish on letting people in, if the Army see's you can perform to the level, they 99 times out of 100 will let you through the door


* this does not include the guys in the boat teams who are cool, or the new naval infantry, who have yet to be proven "cool"

 
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dirtykraut       8/15/2007 11:06:17 PM
 "Other than that no problems, coming out of college with a dual political science/Asian studies major and a 3.5 GPA, Ifm in shape, run, lift weights, etc. etc.".......That's all fine and good, but unless you give one hell of a good Cleveland Steamer to the Delta CO, you won't be more competitive than your peers. Most of the guys in the infantry are highly fit and motivated individuals, and while we do have some people who are dumber than a sack of bricks, many NCO's in the infantry and Army in general have BA's (though one doesn't necessarily have to be smart to get a degree).
 
It only gets more competitive further up the ladder. If you get to CAG selection, you will notice almost without exception that everyone around you are exceptional soldiers, sailors, airmen or marines, many of whom have had years of experience in SOF, who all want to be there more than any other place in the world at that time. I'm not trying to scare you, but you have a better chance of becoming an a brain surgeon. You are probably mature enough to know that, but some people just can't grasp that.
 
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dirtykraut       8/15/2007 11:13:46 PM
If you are interested in the intelligence side, I would suggest a career as an Airborne Cryptologic Linguist in the Air Force. People who I know who have this MOS enjoy every minute of it. They work on Special Operations aircraft and decide wether or not the information they are translating is valuable intelligence. You will learn a language, an invaluable skill, and you will get job experience that will set you up for a career in one of the various intelligence agencies, or perhaps a career in Foreign Service. On top of that, a stint in the Air Force is almost like being paid to go to a country club. It's what I would do if I got a chance to start over.
 
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static       8/16/2007 2:27:58 PM
Yeah, thats sort of what I expected.  All these units have a huge pool of people to pull from, so why waste time with someone who has a physical profile when there are 100 more who don't?  That's sort of what I run up against when I think about going the classic SOF route.

Grad school is my other option right now.  I already have one language besides english, and if go back to school I will probably try to pick up another.  Of course that means realistically another three years and I'm in my mid 20s coming out, but it seems worth it down the road as far as job opportunities go.

Maybe mough (or anyone) could answer this for me:  If I went in enlisted with an intel MOS and volunteered airborne and for Ranger school when a slot opened up, and then got a commission after two or three years, what would the chances be of being assigned to the 75th?  Do they pick and choose their support people or are you gauranteed a position if you pass all the schools?

 
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