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Subject: CQB
GOP    6/27/2007 6:56:43 PM
Whatsup guys? First, let me say this: I realize I'm am the guy who makes almost all of the threads on this site, so I apologize for that. I'm too lazy to find another website and build up a solid repuatation, and SOCNET I believe has rejected my membership twice now (I most certainly wouldn't post there though as the BTDT types would own me, they don't seem to like newbs lol). So anyone, here is the question: [b]What how would you guys say the CQB tactics between military special operation groups and law enforcement special tactic units differ?[/b] I realize that the ROE's are different, but I'm referring more to the actual door kicking, room clearing, H2H tactics. Are they basically the same, or do they have different doctrines, etc? I realize you will probably see a major difference in skill when comparing a unit like CAG to a local part time SRT team, but the methods are close to the same right? Also, to the guys who have actually seen these guys train, how would you compare the CQB ability of a military SOF unit like CAG/DEVGRU/MARSOC DA platoon to a law enforcement Special tactics unit like FBI HRT/LAPD SWAT?
 
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longrifle       6/27/2007 7:55:13 PM
The goal in a police tactical operation is to take someone into custody without killing anyone.  Not always true for the military, although in some cases it is.

I never saw military SOF train CQB.  I don't know what goes on today, but 20 years ago they didn't invite paratroopers from non-ranger units to watch them play.   The only time I've been near HRT was for one brief training insertion using their helicopter, so I can't make a comparison; I only met the two pilots and one man from the entry element who was acting as crew chief.

The basic tactics will have a lot of similarities, such as flash banging a room instead of fragging a room before entry.   And you might have to precisely place the flash bang inside the door on the end of a "bang pole" instead of just tossing it into the room.  You want to startle the perp but you can't have it landing on the baby's head.  Usually, you can't do an explosive breach for similar reasons.

The biggest difference is that in a police tactical operation you are normally operating in a permissive environment, and, usually (there are exceptions), time is on your side.  SWAT: Sit, Wait, And Talk.
 
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GOP       6/27/2007 9:14:57 PM

The goal in a police tactical operation is to take someone into custody
without killing anyone.  Not always true for the military, although in
some cases it is.

I never saw military SOF train CQB.  I don't know what goes on today, but 20 years ago they didn't invite paratroopers from non-ranger units to watch them play.   The only time I've been near HRT was for one brief training insertion using their helicopter, so I can't make a comparison; I only met the two pilots and one man from the entry element who was acting as crew chief.

The basic tactics will have a lot of similarities, such as flash banging a room instead of fragging a room before entry.   And you might have to precisely place the flash bang inside the door on the end of a "bang pole" instead of just tossing it into the room.  You want to startle the perp but you can't have it landing on the baby's head.  Usually, you can't do an explosive breach for similar reasons.

The biggest difference is that in a police tactical operation you are normally operating in a permissive environment, and, usually (there are exceptions), time is on your side.  SWAT: Sit, Wait, And Talk.

Would you say that you guys put yourself more at risk by trying to take the perp in alive, or are there measures in place that enable you to be as safe as you would if you were able to kill the bad guy?
So as far as entry, basically the team tactics/room clearing tactics are the same except for the fact that you can't use deadly force unless absolutely necessary, and you can't use frag grenades. I'm guessing "truck pulls" (I apologize if thats the wrong name) take the place of breaching charges on such things as gates, heavy doors, etc?
 
Sort of off topic, but since I'm hoping for a similar career, I'll ask. I remember reading that I believe you or smitty are on a part-time team, how often do you train per month? Also, how often do you train with other departments or go to schools?  I'm sure it varies greatly from dept. to dept., but just curious.
 
Sorry for all the questions, I just can't find ANY information at all on anything SWAT related. I own around 75 books on military Special Operations, and know of dozens of websites on the topic, but find it near impossible to find anything dealing with the Law enforcement side of things.
 
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longrifle       6/28/2007 3:10:23 AM
"Would you say that you guys put yourself more at risk by trying to take the perp in alive, or are there measures in place that enable you to be as safe as you would if you were able to kill the bad guy?"

Well you can kill the bad guy but he needs to be an immediate threat to officers or others.  There's no measure that can guarantee your safety but things like gas, flashbangs, bodyarmor, ballistic shields, negotiations, and having the area secure with an ambulance staged closeby can help to make police tactical operations safer but never quite safe.  Generally, I think military operations are much more risky but there have been police operations where sugar turned to s**t in a hurry.
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"So as far as entry, basically the team tactics/room clearing tactics are the same except for the fact that you can't use deadly force unless absolutely necessary, and you can't use frag grenades. I'm guessing "truck pulls" (I apologize if thats the wrong name) take the place of breaching charges on such things as gates, heavy doors, etc?"

I've never seen it, but truck pulls have been done.  Battering rams, rake and break bars, hooligan tools, and shotgun breaching rounds for door hinges.  You can explosive breach in some situations.   I'm not a breaching expert by any means, just familiar with it is all. 
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"Sort of off topic, but since I'm hoping for a similar career, I'll ask. I remember reading that I believe you or smitty are on a part-time team, how often do you train per month? Also, how often do you train with other departments or go to schools?  I'm sure it varies greatly from dept. to dept., but just curious."

We usually have a We train twice a month for three to five hours each session.  That's the snipers.  Training twice a month lets us log two cold bore shots each month instead of one.  The entry element usually does one longer session each month.   We have a PT test twice a year.  We're a long way from Special Ops, but we're not "Joe Bagadoughnuts" either. We usually have a 40 hour refresher course every year.  It didn't happen this year for various reasons.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
"Sorry for all the questions, I just can't find ANY information at all on anything SWAT related. I own around 75 books on military Special Operations, and know of dozens of websites on the topic, but find it near impossible to find anything dealing with the Law enforcement side of things."

policeone.com

combatshootingandtactics.com

swattools.com
 
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longrifle       6/28/2007 4:11:09 AM
Correction on one of those websites.  It's swatools.com.  Only one "t."

You will like the articles section on combatshootingandtactics.com.  Paul Howe is retired Army.  He had many years in Delta and is a Mogadishu veteran.

Also check out ntoa.org.

 
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Horsesoldier       6/28/2007 9:08:46 AM


[b]What how would you guys say the CQB tactics between military special operation groups and law enforcement special tactic units differ?[/b] I realize that the ROE's are different, but I'm referring more to the actual door kicking, room clearing, H2H tactics. Are they basically the same, or do they have different doctrines, etc? I realize you will probably see a major difference in skill when comparing a unit like CAG to a local part time SRT team, but the methods are close to the same right? Also, to the guys who have actually seen these guys train, how would you compare the CQB ability of a military SOF unit like CAG/DEVGRU/MARSOC DA platoon to a law enforcement Special tactics unit like FBI HRT/LAPD SWAT?


Hmmmm.  Kind of a hard question really for a few reasons, including:
A) You get variation within the law enforcement community reflecting a number of things -- training $$$ and time, missions/threat, local protocols, etc etc etc.  Law enforcement generally does not do explosive entry, for instance -- but some departments do have guys trained to do it even if it rarely comes into play.  (And, also, my personal knowledge of LEO close quarters tactics is sufficiently spotty that I'm certain LongRifle or other guys with an LE background can explain things much better than the kind of second hand stuff I know about.)
 
B) You get variation within the military community.  CAG does things differently than the SEALs in some ways, for instance, again reflecting difference in training time and $$$, missions, etc. 
 
C) I'm not sure if breaking down a detailed point by point comparison of military (or at least army SOF) CQB versus what I understand the state of the art to be for law enforcement TTPs is necessarily a good thing in an open forum.
 
All that said, I think the big point of difference you'd see if driven by the ROEs and the threat/mission environment, with (again, I believe) that main big picture point you'd notice is that law enforcement CQB tends to be more methodical and deliberate than military CQB. 
 
Some specific points:
 
actual door kicking
 
Longrifle can probably elaborate in more detail, but on the law enforcement side you're going to see more mechanical breaching, chain pulls and such.  Explosive breaching is very uncommon as is, I believe, ballistic breaching with shotguns (but may be wrong on that second part).
 
In military CQB you've got the full range of options a breacher can bring to play, plus additional possibilities in some cases like having a tank gun do the breaching for you (all of which can be, and is frequently, effected by ROEs).
 
room clearing
 
I think most LEO tactical teams teach strong walling, but again may be wrong.  Some military units push that approach, some prefer other approaches.  I could provide examples of who likes strong walling in the military and who does not, but think that may be one of those things which does not need to be out there in an open forum. 
 
H2H tactics
 
No idea on what LEO guys use, as far as combatives, but do suspect that after a couple months as your basic uniformed patrol guy they're probably as good or better than all but the best military units at combatives after dealing with unruly drunks and crackheads who don't want to get arrested, etc.
 
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GOP       6/28/2007 11:38:51 PM

"Would you say that
you guys put yourself more at risk by trying to take the perp in alive,
or are there measures in place that enable you to be as safe as you
would if you were able to kill the bad guy?"


Well you can kill the bad guy but he needs to be an immediate threat to officers or others.  There's no measure that can guarantee your safety but things like gas, flashbangs, bodyarmor, ballistic shields, negotiations, and having the area secure with an ambulance staged closeby can help to make police tactical operations safer but never quite safe.  Generally, I think military operations are much more risky but there have been police operations where sugar turned to s**t in a hurry.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"So as far as entry, basically the team tactics/room clearing
tactics are the same except for the fact that you can't use deadly
force unless absolutely necessary, and you can't use frag grenades. I'm
guessing "truck pulls" (I apologize if thats the wrong name) take the
place of breaching charges on such things as gates, heavy doors, etc?"


I've never seen it, but truck pulls have been done.  Battering rams, rake and break bars, hooligan tools, and shotgun breaching rounds for door hinges.  You can explosive breach in some situations.   I'm not a breaching expert by any means, just familiar with it is all. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

"Sort of off topic, but since I'm hoping for a similar career, I'll
ask. I remember reading that I believe you or smitty are on a part-time
team, how often do you train per month? Also, how often do you train
with other departments or go to schools?  I'm sure it varies greatly
from dept. to dept., but just curious."


We usually have a We train twice a month for three to five hours each session.  That's the snipers.  Training twice a month lets us log two cold bore shots each month instead of one.  The entry element usually does one longer session each month.   We have a PT test twice a year.  We're a long way from Special Ops, but we're not "Joe Bagadoughnuts" either. We usually have a 40 hour refresher course every year.  It didn't happen this year for various reasons.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

"Sorry for all the questions, I just can't find ANY information at
all on anything SWAT related. I own around 75 books on military Special
Operations, and know of dozens of websites on the topic, but find it
near impossible to find anything dealing with the Law enforcement side
of things."


policeone.com

combatshootingandtactics.com

swattools.com


Longrifle, thanks for the great info and websites. You say you are a long way from special ops, in what areas would you say and is that due more to the lack of training time, personell, or equipment would you say? Also, would you think that the major full time departments like LAPD SWAT, Dallas SWAT, NYPD ESU, etc are as good at CQB as some special ops units? I remember watching a recent SWAT challenge, and although the GSG-9 won it, Dallas and San Antonio SWAT were not far behind. I have read on several sites that FBI HRT trains alot with military SOF units and even foreign Tier 1 units (such as the GSG-9 and GIGN), so I'm guessing they are at an extremely high level when it comes to doing their job.
 
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GOP       6/28/2007 11:53:19 PM




[b]What how would you guys say the CQB tactics between military special operation groups and law enforcement special tactic units differ?[/b] I realize that the ROE's are different, but I'm referring more to the actual door kicking, room clearing, H2H tactics. Are they basically the same, or do they have different doctrines, etc? I realize you will probably see a major difference in skill when comparing a unit like CAG to a local part time SRT team, but the methods are close to the same right? Also, to the guys who have actually seen these guys train, how would you compare the CQB ability of a military SOF unit like CAG/DEVGRU/MARSOC DA platoon to a law enforcement Special tactics unit like FBI HRT/LAPD SWAT?



Hmmmm.  Kind of a hard question really for a few reasons, including:

A) You get variation within the law enforcement community reflecting a number of things -- training $$$ and time, missions/threat, local protocols, etc etc etc.  Law enforcement generally does not do explosive entry, for instance -- but some departments do have guys trained to do it even if it rarely comes into play.  (And, also, my personal knowledge of LEO close quarters tactics is sufficiently spotty that I'm certain LongRifle or other guys with an LE background can explain things much better than the kind of second hand stuff I know about.)

 

B) You get variation within the military community.  CAG does things differently than the SEALs in some ways, for instance, again reflecting difference in training time and $$$, missions, etc. 

 

C) I'm not sure if breaking down a detailed point by point comparison of military (or at least army SOF) CQB versus what I understand the state of the art to be for law enforcement TTPs is necessarily a good thing in an open forum.

 

All that said, I think the big point of difference you'd see if driven by the ROEs and the threat/mission environment, with (again, I believe) that main big picture point you'd notice is that law enforcement CQB tends to be more methodical and deliberate than military CQB. 

 

Some specific points:

 

actual door kicking

 

Longrifle can probably elaborate in more detail, but on the law enforcement side you're going to see more mechanical breaching, chain pulls and such.  Explosive breaching is very uncommon as is, I believe, ballistic breaching with shotguns (but may be wrong on that second part).

 

In military CQB you've got the full range of options a breacher can bring to play, plus additional possibilities in some cases like having a tank gun do the breaching for you (all of which can be, and is frequently, effected by ROEs).

 

room clearing

 

I think most LEO tactical teams teach strong walling, but again may be wrong.  Some military units push that approach, some prefer other approaches.  I could provide examples of who likes strong walling in the military and who does not, but think that may be one of those things which does not need to be out there in an open forum. 

 

H2H tactics
 

No idea on what LEO guys use, as far as combatives, but do suspect that after a couple months as your basic uniformed patrol guy they're probably as good or better than all but the best military units at combatives after dealing with unruly drunks and crackheads who don't want to get arrested, etc.



Horse, another great post. I certainly >don't< want any OPSEC issues or anything out there on an open forum that shouldn't be, but what is stone walling (again, if it is something that shouldn't be out there I understand totally)? Also, since you are from a military background, have you ever heard/seen any LE SWAT units training with any Military SOF units? Just curious if it is common or not.

As far as H2H of uniformed guys, I'm not really sure if they are as good as even the average combat arms units. At my MMA gym,
 
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longrifle       6/29/2007 7:06:48 AM
"You say you are a long way from special ops, in what areas would you say and is that due more to the lack of training time, personell, or equipment would you say?"

Mostly training time.  I think it's just logical that people and units that train full time are going to be more capable. 

As far as personnel goes, we have good people but the reality is that I'm almost 41. 

I can still run up and down the fire house stairs several times, hit the hammer sled, do 5 strict overgrip pullups, and drag a 180lbs dummy across the fire house floor - all while wearing boots, BDUs, and a 15lbs weight vest - for our PT test twice a year.  The course takes about 5 minutes.  It's designed to be and anaerobic strength endurance test.  S
o I'm not in bad shape for the shape I'm in, so to speak.  

That's still different that fantasizing that my back and knees would hold up for Delta selection.

We have the equipment we need for the job we do.  Not all departments are so fortunate.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 


"Also, would you think that the major full time departments like LAPD SWAT, Dallas SWAT, NYPD ESU, etc are as good at CQB as some special ops units? I remember watching a recent SWAT challenge, and although the GSG-9 won it, Dallas and San Antonio SWAT were not far behind. I have read on several sites that FBI HRT trains alot with military SOF units and even foreign Tier 1 units (such as the GSG-9 and GIGN), so I'm guessing they are at an extremely high level when it comes to doing their job."

As good as?  I don't know, but, again, I think it's only logical that the full time teams are more capable.  I really feel like we're probably as good as any part time team out there, but at the end of the day we're still a part time team with several middle aged men.

The saving grace is that, normally, we deal with one or two suspects on a callout.   And although they may be violent, it's usually violence in a mean kind of way, not a trained kind of way.

For example, the day before yesterday we served two high risk warrants.  Here's the perp: delivers meth, beats his wife, known to display guns on drug deals, and known to have held a gun to his wife's head.  Not sure how the wife will react, but she's a cranker too.  Just counting the tactical team we had six entry team members and two snipers, including myself.   Plus, we had several more patrolmen for security and a few others standing by - like social services to take the kids, since mom and dad went to jail.  All that was for two people.  It
went smooth even for a part time team like us.

So it's usually kind of like the U.S. invading Panama.  Not without risk, but still overwhelming force for the size of the threat. 

Think about the super bad situations like Virginia Tech, other school shootings and hostage takings, the DC snipers, and the LA bank robbery shootout.  How many perps?  One to three, right?  And on your home ground.  So it's not like a part time team has fly deep into a denied area like North Vietnam to assault Son Tay Prison against a superior force.



 
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GOP       6/29/2007 7:26:39 PM

"You say you are a long way from special ops,
in what areas would you say and is that due more to the lack of
training time, personell, or equipment would you say?"


Mostly training time.  I think it's just logical that people and units that train full time are going to be more capable. 

As far as personnel goes, we have good people but the reality is that I'm almost 41. 

I can still run up and down the fire house stairs several times, hit the hammer sled, do 5 strict overgrip pullups, and drag a 180lbs dummy across the fire house floor - all while wearing boots, BDUs, and a 15lbs weight vest - for our PT test twice a year.  The course takes about 5 minutes.  It's designed to be and anaerobic strength endurance test.  S
o I'm not in bad shape for the shape I'm in, so to speak.  

That's still different that fantasizing that my back and knees would hold up for Delta selection.

We have the equipment we need for the job we do.  Not all departments are so fortunate.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 


"Also, would you
think that the major full time departments like LAPD SWAT, Dallas SWAT,
NYPD ESU, etc are as good at CQB as some special ops units? I remember
watching a recent SWAT challenge, and although the GSG-9 won it, Dallas
and San Antonio SWAT were not far behind. I have read on several sites
that FBI HRT trains alot with military SOF units and even foreign Tier
1 units (such as the GSG-9 and GIGN), so I'm guessing they are at an
extremely high level when it comes to doing their job."

As good as?  I don't know, but, again, I think it's only logical that the full time teams are more capable.  I really feel like we're probably as good as any part time team out there, but at the end of the day we're still a part time team with several middle aged men.

The saving grace is that, normally, we deal with one or two suspects on a callout.   And although they may be violent, it's usually violence in a mean kind of way, not a trained kind of way.

For example, the day before yesterday we served two high risk warrants.  Here's the perp: delivers meth, beats his wife, known to display guns on drug deals, and known to have held a gun to his wife's head.  Not sure how the wife will react, but she's a cranker too.  Just counting the tactical team we had six entry team members and two snipers, including myself.   Plus, we had several more patrolmen for security and a few others standing by - like social services to take the kids, since mom and dad went to jail.  All that was for two people.  It
went smooth even for a part time team like us.

So it's usually kind of like the U.S. invading Panama.  Not without risk, but still overwhelming force for the size of the threat. 

Think about the super bad
situations like Virginia Tech, other school shootings and
hostage takings, the DC snipers, and the LA bank robbery shootout.  How
many perps?  One to three, right?  And on your home ground.  So it's not like a part time team has fly deep into a denied area like North Vietnam to assault Son Tay Prison against a superior force.






Yeah, but would you say that real world experience advances your skills as much or more than training time? As far as personell and equipment, I sort of figure that my cities SRT unit is sort of like keystone cops. They have an extremely low budget (their SWAT truck looks like an old UPS truck with maybe a little armor on it), they are very small, and I have NEVER seen or heard of them operating at all in my quite town of about 7,000. What kind of op tempo do you guys have typically (I understand it will vary GREATLY between cities, etc), and what is the schedule typically like (ie: are you patrol officers until a situation arises, or do they split your sc
 
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longrifle       6/30/2007 5:49:36 AM
"Yeah, but would you say that real world experience advances your skills as much or more than training time?"

Yes, but not the way you mean.  I'm an avid hunter and shooter.  I'd be out with a rifle even if I wasn't a sniper on our team.  Obviously that's different for the entry element.
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"What kind of op tempo do you guys have typically (I understand it will vary GREATLY between cities, etc), and what is the schedule typically like (ie: are you patrol officers until a situation arises, or do they split your schedule where you are on call for SWAT a certain number of days, a patrol officer a couple of days, etc)?"

We have low op tempo.  One or two callouts per year is the usual.  That we're pretty good (I feel) as part time teams go is a testimony to the caliber of our people.  Everyone seems to take training seriously.  We've gotten some good schools.  We've got good equipment.

Our team is combined city/county team.  Everyone is a patrol officer or deputy first.  When the chief or sheriff makes the decision that the tactical team is needed we get a phone call if we're not already on duty. 



 
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