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Subject: SP Community pls read & mobilize, M4 Debate
SCCOMarine    4/30/2007 2:44:21 PM
I came across this article at military.com. Its very interesting, it on how the military complex bows Special Interest at our expense. This is just one of many issues I've come across over the years but this one is the first that I'm going to personally get involved with. The reason why it BURNS ME UP is b/c they are dismissing the HK 416 and any other Rifle w/out even a competion to point out the short comings of the M4. This happens repeteatedly in the acquistions business, and they hope to keep it low level and out the press long enough to die out. Then they can move on and aquire a piece of sh*t w/out any fuss. I've sent an email giving my personal support in anyway needed to help out.
 
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SCCOMarine       4/30/2007 2:46:52 PM
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Senator Tells Army to Reconsider M4

April 30, 2007
 
The debate over the Army's choice to purchase hundreds of thousands of M4 carbines for its new brigade combat teams is facing stiff opposition from a small group of senators who say the rifle may be inferior to others already in the field.

 

In an April 12 letter to acting Army Secretary Pete Geren, Oklahoma Republican Sen. Tom Coburn said purchase of the M4 - a shortened version of the Vietnam-era M16 - was based on requirements from the early 1990s and that better, more reliable weapons exist that could give Army troops a more effective weapon.

Coburn asked the Army to hold a "free and open competition" before inking sole-source contracts worth about $375 million to M4 manufacturer, West Hartford, Conn.-based Colt Defense - which just received a $50 million Army contract for M4s on April 20.

"I am concerned with the Army's plans to procure nearly half a million new rifles outside of any competitive process," Coburn wrote in the mid-April letter obtained by Military.com.

A Geren spokesman said the secretary's office is putting together a reply to Coburn's letter, but provided no further details.

Take Action: Tell your public officials how you feel about this issue.

Coburn has banded together with a small group of like-minded senators to push the Army into a competition to determine whether the M4 is the best choice to equip newly-forming brigade combat teams, a top Coburn aide said.

The senator's concerns grew out of media coverage that showed the M4's design fails in critical situations and that special operations forces prefer other designs.

"Considering the long standing reliability and lethality problems with the M16 design, of which the M4 is based, I am afraid that our troops in combat might not have the best weapon," Coburn wrote. "A number of manufacturers have researched, tested and fielded weapons which, by all accounts, appear to provide significantly improved reliability."

Related Article: Army Won't Field Rifle Deemed Superior to M4

Special operations forces, including "tier one" units such as the Army's Delta Force and the Navy's SEAL Development Group - or SEAL Team Six - have used their own funds to purchase the Heckler & Koch-built 416, which uses a gas-piston operating system less susceptible to failure than Colt's gas-operated design.

"That's significant, because these guys don't screw around," the aide said.

In fact, Colt included four different weapons in the competition to build the Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle, or SCAR, none of which used the M4s gas system, the aide said.

In a routine acquisition notice March 23, a U.S. Special Forces battalion based in Okinawa announced that it is buying 84 upper receiver assemblies for the HK416 to modify their M4 carbines. The M4 fires using a system that redirects gas from the expended round to eject it and reload another. The 416 and SCAR use a gas-operated piston that physically pushes the bolt back to eject the round and load another.

Carbon buildup from the M4's gas system has plagued the rifle for years, resulting in some close calls with Soldiers in combat whose rifles jammed at critical moments.

According to the solicitation for the new upper receiver assemblies, the 416 "allows Soldiers to replace the existing M4 upper receiver with an HK proprietary gas system that does not introduce propellant gases and the associated carbon fouling back into the weapon's interior. This reduces operator cleaning time, and increases the reliability of the M4 Carbine, particularly in an environment in which sand and dust are prevalent."

Yet the Army has still declined to buy anything other than t

 
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GOP       4/30/2007 7:32:18 PM
I would love to be able to help push for the HK 416, that thing is unbelievable. I just don't have the resume to make a difference. I'd write a letter praising the 416, and at the bottom it would read:
 
Mike ***********,
 
17 year old high school student with absolutely no military/law enforcement experience.
 
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Horsesoldier       4/30/2007 8:28:19 PM
Great idea.  Let's blow a billion dollars on a rifle that is supposed to go 15,000 rounds between cleaning without a stoppage to replace a rifle that goes 5000 rounds between cleanings without a stoppage, when we could spend that money on all sorts of things that do need fixing.
 
When was the last time anyone who has ever worn a uniform fired 5000 rounds through their issue weapon without cleaning?  (At least without being negligent in their laziness.)
 
I've handled some HK 416s (10" barrel models).  Nice, heavier than a comparable M4 though.  Doesn't seem to bring anything really noteworthy to the table, though -- at least not enough improvement to justify the expense of replacing the M4A1.
 
Now, when the SCAR-L comes out, that may be another story (should be playing with them this summer or fall, personally).  Also gas piston, plus additional tweaks to improve fightability over the already superb AR ergonomics.
 
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smitty237       4/30/2007 11:42:31 PM
I've heard lots of good things about the HK-416.  Sounds like the krauts have further improved the M-16, but truth be known the M-4 isn't broken and it all comes down to $$$.  The HK-416 is more expensive than the M-4, and to the bean counters that's what matters.  It isn't simply a "not made here" mental block that prevented the US Ordnance folks that prevented the military from adopting foreign designed or made arms.  The M-16A2 I carried at Ft. Benning, GA in the summer of 1992 was made by FN, not Colt. 
 
I hear ya, SCCOMarine, but I think the fact that the Pentagon is allowing the SEALS to buy and deploy the HK-416 is significant.  Perhaps after extended field use the brass will take notice and take another look at this weapon. 
 
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dirtykraut       5/1/2007 12:12:16 AM

Great idea.  Let's blow a billion dollars on a rifle that is supposed to go 15,000 rounds between cleaning without a stoppage to replace a rifle that goes 5000 rounds between cleanings without a stoppage, when we could spend that money on all sorts of things that do need fixing.

 

When was the last time anyone who has ever worn a uniform fired 5000 rounds through their issue weapon without cleaning?  (At least without being negligent in their laziness.)

 

I've handled some HK 416s (10" barrel models).  Nice, heavier than a comparable M4 though.  Doesn't seem to bring anything really noteworthy to the table, though -- at least not enough improvement to justify the expense of replacing the M4A1.

 

Now, when the SCAR-L comes out, that may be another story (should be playing with them this summer or fall, personally).  Also gas piston, plus additional tweaks to improve fightability over the already superb AR ergonomics.


I agree. I also think that the knowledge that you have a rifle that needs cleaned only every 15000 rounds will lead to laziness. When someone isn't cleaning their rifle every so often, they may slack off and forget to do so than if they were cleaning their rifle more often.
 
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GOP       5/1/2007 3:12:10 AM

I hear ya, SCCOMarine, but I think the fact that the Pentagon is allowing the SEALS to buy and deploy the HK-416 is significant.  Perhaps after extended field use the brass will take notice and take another look at this weapon. 
Well, the Pentagon realizes that their best SOF unit should get to buy and deploy the best weapon availible, so of course they are letting the Teams deploy the HK. Just teasing guys.
Alot of former SEALs are working with H&K and they put alot of valuable input into making the weapon. I think the reason SEALs are so attracted to the weapon is the reliability. The Teams have been having a good bit of ops in desert enviroments lately, and of course alot of training ops in the water, so the HK 416's reliability in those enviroments is a extremely attractive to the Teams. I have a feeling that the SBS could be fielding the weapon soon aswell for.
 
Smitty, has your SWAT unit looked into using the HK? I mean, how does the procurement process work in Law Enforcement, and is a weapon such as that even needed?

 
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GOP       5/1/2007 3:13:29 AM
My grammar is horrible in the last post. My apologies.
 
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mough       5/1/2007 3:30:43 AM
I personally find it quite telling that the SMU's went's with the HK416 family instead of the SCAR, they had ample access to both during R&D and in operational areas, and went with what they felt was the supirior system
 
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mough       5/1/2007 3:37:10 AM



I hear ya, SCCOMarine, but I think the fact that the Pentagon is allowing the SEALS to buy and deploy the HK-416 is significant.  Perhaps after extended field use the brass will take notice and take another look at this weapon. 

Well, the Pentagon realizes that their best SOF unit should get to buy and deploy the best weapon availible, so of course they are letting the Teams deploy the HK. Just teasing guys.

Alot of former SEALs are working with H&K and they put alot of valuable input into making the weapon. I think the reason SEALs are so attracted to the weapon is the reliability. The Teams have been having a good bit of ops in desert enviroments lately, and of course alot of training ops in the water, so the HK 416's reliability in those enviroments is a extremely attractive to the Teams. I have a feeling that the SBS could be fielding the weapon soon aswell for.




Larry Vickers, gun God and former D-Boy was instrumental in developing the 416,

BTW, the 416/417 is already in/going to be in service with unit's outside the US, the Dutch have it, the Germans are in the process of getting it, the Canadians/Irish/Italians/Norweigians and a few others have them or are getting them, it's becoming a very popular choice

 
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TrustButVerify       5/1/2007 11:36:08 AM
The MTBF for a weapon fired in a clean environment is one thing; but how well does the 416 stand up to dirt/dust/mud when compared to the M16? For my part, I've experienced more M16 jams due to the aforementioned foreign debris than anything else. "Future Weapons" showed a 416 being pulled out of a pile of sand and firing a full clip without jamming; take that for what it's worth. I'm not inclined to give what is essentially an industry puff-piece much credit, but if this is really indicative of the 416's capabilities it bears considering.
 
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