SP Community pls read & mobilize, M4 Debate

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Subject: SP Community pls read & mobilize, M4 Debate
SCCOMarine 4/30/2007 2:44:21 PM

I came across this article at military.com. Its very interesting, it on how the military complex bows Special Interest at our expense. This is just one of many issues I've come across over the years but this one is the first that I'm going to personally get involved with. The reason why it BURNS ME UP is b/c they are dismissing the HK 416 and any other Rifle w/out even a competion to point out the short comings of the M4. This happens repeteatedly in the acquistions business, and they hope to keep it low level and out the press long enough to die out. Then they can move on and aquire a piece of sh*t w/out any fuss. I've sent an email giving my personal support in anyway needed to help out.

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mough 5/2/2007 2:46:50 AM

Horse, what is $1 billion to equip our grunts with top notch rifles to a nation who spends $10,000 on a toilet seat and feeds the USAF support staff crab legs/steak and veggies while the grunts eat $1 MRE's?

My take on it is that Congress is not just going to magically pull a billion dollars out of a hat, right? Somebody is going to get their budget cut to find that billion dollars and I'd suspect that it's not going to be some ineffective social program, or the Air Force's chow budget (or the USAF's Raptor budget, etc.), but it's going to be a case of taking something away from some other Army program, or making me and everyone else in uniform get a smaller pay raise, etc.

I'd rather see a billion dollars spent on, say, bullets so troops can get more range time before going over to the sand box, or refinement of IED detection systems and countermeasures, expedited and wider fielding of RSTA systems and gear to locate bad guys, improved body armor, more language training for Big Army troops so they don't have to rely exclusively on local 'terps, etc. There's a whole laundry list of things we need besides a rifle that works even better than the quite reliable and quite successful rifle we've got now.

(On a side note -- MRE's, frighteningly enough, cost more than a $1 per -- I think it is more like $7-8 per unit. I say "frightening" because that means that everytime troops eat in a chow hall or a field feed with cooked hot rations, they're getting fed cheaper than an MRE . . . it can be a bit unsettling when the lids of the mermites are pulled off and you're staring at Grade D deep fried veal patties, etc.)

You make some good points, but we are talking about $1 billion to an improved rifle. That's chump change compared to some of the bigger projects. Hey, I haven't fired any of them though so I am completely out of the loop on how the weapon truly works...if you don't feel it is worth it, then it probably isn't.

Yes it's "only" 1 Billion, but he has a point, that 1 Billion won't come out of any of the whizz bang gold plated legacy projects, F-22, Zumwalt destroyers, or any of the other whizz bang star trek shit that are Generals and Admirals pet projects or industry dependent ones, it'll come out of the basics, less rounds for training, less fuel for vehicles training, keeping old gear longer then you should, not replacing a truck or an armoured vehicle when you should, not getting the guys on the ground kit they need or that would make their job that be safer and easier

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Horsesoldier 5/2/2007 8:24:34 AM

He was one of the assaulters who rescued Kurt Muse in "Operation acid gambit" in Panama, solid guy.

the 416 has been used in active operation by US forces...there are photos around the web if you know what to look for

Vickers is definitely someone whose opinion on weapons is credible in the world according to me. Besides operational time in CAG, he was part of the OTC training cadre for quite a while as well. Probably knows as much about combat marksmanship, etc, as anyone alive today.

I'd echo what Mough says about the 416 already having seen action in US hands. By the time that Army Times "broke" the story about CAG buying them, their use had already spread well outside of JSOC, and a lot of SOCOM units have them now. (As I noted previously, units can purchase them without much fuss, provided you've got clout to cut through the wait list, as a 416 upper is not considered a weapon by the US military or BATFE, etc.)

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SCCOMarine 5/2/2007 4:26:45 PM

Wow. You seem to be ratcheting up the brilliance of your thinking by leaps and bounds.

So what you're now saying is Everytime some company wants to sell a new widget to the government, we should blow millions of dollars seeing if their new widget works as well as they claim it works. Even if we don't need a new widget, and their new widget would end up costing us one or more billion dollars for a percentage point or two of improved performance.

Please tell me you work for the HK public relations department. Because the alternative -- that you really think what you're saying makes sense -- is frightening.

Hey smart guy! They're going to blow a billion on a new weapon system anyway. The debate isn't about choosing the HK its about having open competition for the new contract. About 6 companies have agreed to participate.

The SecArmy doesn't want competition for the contract b/c the shortcomings of the M4 will be apparent. Colt Corp doesn't want open comp, but if its held the M4 they have put forth for the competition is a modified version. Changing the design flaw that they have always known about.

So my logic, for the Intelligent Impaired, is to allow for an open competition for the contract, B4 spending a billion on a rifle w/a flaw that the Company is only willing to fix if threatened w/the embarrassment of the result of a competition. Something to which the SecArmy is doing his best to avoid B4 making the deal w/ Colt final.

The only thing that is frightening is your logic. "Don't have a competition, don't show the flaws of the M4, the M4 is 'good enough'"

I mean its not that competitions like these show design flaws that are then fixed to stay competitive. But wait that what the Colt Corp is doing right? No, they're only fixing they're design flaw if they're forced to compete!

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SCCOMarine For those who haven't read up on the Debate! 5/2/2007 4:55:14 PM

The money for the new rifles has already been set aside. They're not thinking of spending 1bil just to spend on the HK.

The Billion was set aside for new rifles for new brigades. There was a debate, "Should we give'm 16's or M4's". B/c of size, weight, etc. they went w/ the M4's. Then someone then noted the current M4 being fielded dates to the 90's on technology based on the 60's.

The decision was then to open a debate for a new rifle. While that debate was on going many disadvantages to the M4 began to surface when compared to newer designs. A competion for the contract was proposed. As suddenly as the competition was proposed the SecArmy announced he had decided on the M4 b/c the rifle is "good enough".

Senators pushed for a comp, a competition just a comp for the contract, the SecArmy declined. Sen Tom Coburn took up the challenge and now that there is a serious threat of a competition for the contract the Colt Corp modified the M4 to a gas piston design to make it more competitive.

Why modify it for the competition? Why not present it as they had planned to it sell to the Army?

The frustration from the Senator comes from the SecArmy's insistence on dancing around a comp for the contract. The billion is going to get spent either way. The only question is is it going to be on the best rifle at the best price?

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SCCOMarine 5/2/2007 5:16:09 PM

In an April 12 letter to acting Army Secretary Pete Geren, Oklahoma Republican Sen. Tom Coburn said purchase of the M4 - a shortened version of the Vietnam-era M16 - was based on requirements from the early 1990s and that better, more reliable weapons exist that could give Army troops a more effective weapon.

Coburn asked the Army to hold a "free and open competition" before inking sole-source contracts worth about $375 million to M4 manufacturer, West Hartford, Conn.-based Colt Defense - which just received a $50 million Army contract for M4s on April 20.

"I am concerned with the Army's plans to procure nearly half a million new rifles outside of any competitive process," Coburn wrote in the mid-April letter obtained by Military.com.

If you want to participate, the heading to the email to Sen Coburn looks like this:

The following message is being sent in regards to Sen. Tom Coburn
banding together with like-minded senators to push the Army into a competition
to determine whether the M4 is the best choice to equip newly-forming
brigade combat teams.

The Debate isn't about choosing the HK. Its about taking the money that they are already going to spend on NEW rifles and ensuring its spent on the BEST rifle!

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GOP 5/2/2007 6:25:39 PM

That is a major flaw I see with our military. WAY too much politics involved, so our military suffers slightly. I think an improved battle rifle is very important (what ever happened to the XM8??? or the SCAR???), much more important then some of the projects you mention, especially for the GWOT.

In any case, it ain't going to happen regardless. The primary use I see for the rifle is simply for SOF use...and they can get almost whatever they want

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sibleyeng 5/2/2007 8:11:14 PM

$7-8 for a high calorie, nutrient packed, long shelf life, self-heating "meal in a bag...in another bag...in another bag" doesn't shock me too much. Lots of "work" has to go into making it.

With hot cooked food, you don't require any of the special processing that goes into the MREs...take large vat of item X, large vat of item Y, and let the cooks work their magic. Beauty of bulk processing.

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sibleyeng 5/2/2007 8:19:32 PM

I hear you...but unfortunately, that whiz bang Star Trek shit is built on perishable skills. One of the reasons we are where we are is because we've been building and designing that sort of stuff for decades. By putting money into these companies, they get to retain the large pool of engineers we need to ensure that we can continue to pump this stuff out when we need to. And they get to keep the cubicle rats occupied and "in practice" so to speak on developing the technological cutting edge.

Financially, it's very difficult for a company to live off the Star Trek shit if the DoD isn't buying, and if they don't survive, when we need a new fighter, ship, or sub, we need a new company to pretty much come up with all the technical know-how needed from scratch.

It's one of the costs of being able to wage large scale modern wars...

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mough 5/3/2007 3:23:37 AM

It's one of the costs of being able to wage large scale modern wars...

I get what your saying mate, and yes it's importent to keep up technologically, but the DOD infact most countries MOD/DOD's never seem to be able to keep a cap on costs, but in the US it's completly over the top, Lockheed being one of the worst, because they are military contract dependent, they seem to to view the US military as a bank with unlimited withdrawls, just look how they tried to gouge the USN on the LCS project, untill someone, nad good on him who ever he was, finally said NO!, untill the DOD starts getting a pair and telling defence contractors that when they sign a contract it's not a blank cheque. your going to see even more budgetary problems in the future, oh and another of my pet peeves, since 9/11 why is every new piece of kit tagged as vital for the war on terror, even when it's clearly not, it's another cynical marketing scam, Oh of course these solid gold toilet brushes are vital for the war on terror, you know the Arabs hate a clean bowl, and they are a bargain at 120,000 dollars each!

well thats my rant for the day

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Horsesoldier 5/3/2007 10:17:50 AM

XM8 (SCCOMarine should probably take note that this was the last uber-rifle HK wanted to sell to the government with a bunch of sexy statistics justifying it . . .) melted during sustained firing tests with the Rangers at Ft Benning.

SCAR is in the process of fielding this year. Some units should be equipped with them before the FY is over.

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