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Subject: SP Community pls read & mobilize, M4 Debate
SCCOMarine    4/30/2007 2:44:21 PM
I came across this article at military.com. Its very interesting, it on how the military complex bows Special Interest at our expense. This is just one of many issues I've come across over the years but this one is the first that I'm going to personally get involved with. The reason why it BURNS ME UP is b/c they are dismissing the HK 416 and any other Rifle w/out even a competion to point out the short comings of the M4. This happens repeteatedly in the acquistions business, and they hope to keep it low level and out the press long enough to die out. Then they can move on and aquire a piece of sh*t w/out any fuss. I've sent an email giving my personal support in anyway needed to help out.
 
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GOP       5/1/2007 3:56:31 PM



Listen I could give a Fu(k which rifle they choose, the competition is open to about 6 different designs, may the best rifle win. But to sit here and argue about this one fires 5,000rds and this one 10,000rds is to argue about semantics and really demeans the discussion.

The competition will meet out the details, if the M4 is only marginally weaker than the competition that will show in the report, but for them to try and smother the possibility of a comp ahead of time is wrong.




If this was a corporation w/these practices it would have gone bankrupt a long time ago w/all the bad acquisition that were made off shady deals.






Wow.  You seem to be ratcheting up the brilliance of your thinking by leaps and bounds.  

So what you're now saying is Everytime some company wants to sell a new widget to the government, we should blow millions of dollars seeing if their new widget works as well as they claim it works.  Even if we don't need a new widget, and their new widget would end up costing us one or more billion dollars for a percentage point or two of improved performance.
 

Please tell me you work for the HK public relations department.  Because the alternative -- that you really think what you're saying makes sense -- is frightening. 

 

 

 



Horse, what is $1 billion to equip our grunts with top notch rifles to a nation who spends $10,000 on a toilet seat and feeds the USAF support staff crab legs/steak and veggies while the grunts eat $1 MRE's? 

 
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GOP       5/1/2007 4:05:48 PM




Cato, this is the most reliable M-4/M-16 around. It can be fired after being submerged in water, it can be fired after being buried in the sand, and it can be fired 360 degrees. This may not be anything great to you, but I know to alot of SOF units with freedom to buy their own weapons and nice procurement budgets, it's just the ticket.


Future Weapons should probably be called Military Industrial Complex Informercial 2007 . . . if you watch that footage of the HK 416 dog and pony show closely the results are not as impressive as the narration would suggest.  Not to say that it is not a well made weapon (it certainly is) but take anything on that show with a grain of salt, since 75% or so of their segments are from companies trying to sell the military something.  Strangely the host of the show seems gushiest with his praise and kind of retarded narration (SEAL or no SEAL, he seems to know very little about weapons, or is being systematically dumbed down by the writers/directors/etc on the show) with those items that have not yet been sold to the government.  I suspect some of SCCOMarines "shady" money is changing hands here . . .

The main appeal of the HK 416 with SOF units seems to be, again, the super short barrel options.  I've seen a bunch of them lately, and none had more than a 10" barrel on them.  The overall consensus seems to be that they're solid weapons, don't group as well as people would like (short sight radius with irons and shorter barrel likely being the issue, not any flaw specific to the weapon), and are a bit heavy.  I haven't seen one torture tested to see if it can go a trillion rounds without jamming or whatever, but nobody I know who's actually carried the M4A1 in combat seems to feel it is unreliable, so it seems like kind of a moot point.

 

As for the "just the ticket" issue . . . eh, maybe.  The HK 416 is one of a bunch of options in the sub-14.5" barrel world.  LMT and Noveske seem to work well using direct gas at those lengths -- LMT (Lewis Machine and Tool) is, if I'm not mistaken, actually the go to guys for the SEALs, making whatever Mark # they're calling their 12" (?) upper receivered ARs.  Keep in mind that an upper receiver from HK, LMT, Noveske, or anyone else is not a serial numbered item and is not considered a weapon, so procurement for SOF units is basically as easy as getting your IMPAC card or op fund account in order and making a couple phone calls.



I can assure the guy on future weapons is not an idiot when it comes to weapons. Have you ever seen him fire any of the weapons, his accuracy is top notch and his tactics are still great (thus why SWAT units and the like let him train with them...whereas normal hosts would have to sit out). Most people would not understand the finer details of a weapon if he told them, so they spend most of the show showing action scenes and such to keep the majority interested.
I'm a fan of H&K. Their reliability seems to be top notch, and they build some excellent gear. I'm just saying that to SOF units, this is just another great option, not that this is the be all end all. 
 
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cato3    Horsesoldier   5/1/2007 4:36:24 PM
Does the 416 offer any improvement over the various alternative piston-operated AR uppers? IIRC alternatives to the direct gas impingement operating system of the AR have been around almost since the rifle entered military service. What makes the 416 so damn special, relative to the other products on the market? I must admit that I've never ridden the HK bandwagon, they've always seemed too much for too little, so my belief that they've found the next greatest thing since sliced bread may be a bit jaundiced.
Thanks,
Cato
 
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dirtykraut       5/1/2007 9:03:21 PM






Listen I could give a Fu(k which rifle they choose, the competition is open to about 6 different designs, may the best rifle win. But to sit here and argue about this one fires 5,000rds and this one 10,000rds is to argue about semantics and really demeans the discussion.


The competition will meet out the details, if the M4 is only marginally weaker than the competition that will show in the report, but for them to try and smother the possibility of a comp ahead of time is wrong.






If this was a corporation w/these practices it would have gone bankrupt a long time ago w/all the bad acquisition that were made off shady deals.









Wow.  You seem to be ratcheting up the brilliance of your thinking by leaps and bounds.  



So what you're now saying is Everytime some company wants to sell a new widget to the government, we should blow millions of dollars seeing if their new widget works as well as they claim it works.  Even if we don't need a new widget, and their new widget would end up costing us one or more billion dollars for a percentage point or two of improved performance.

 



Please tell me you work for the HK public relations department.  Because the alternative -- that you really think what you're saying makes sense -- is frightening. 



 



 


 





Horse, what is $1 billion to equip our grunts with top notch rifles to a nation who spends $10,000 on a toilet seat and feeds the USAF support staff crab legs/steak and veggies while the grunts eat $1 MRE's? 



Now as much fun as it is to make fun of the airforce, they don't eat crab legs and steaks. At least not often. But I think you underestimate the cost to run a military. A lot of US military bases cannot afford pencils, pens and papers, because money is being spent eslewhere. When you have to spend money on a very wide cariety of things, 1 billion dollars is a lot of money. Especially to the bean counters. Now we all look down on the bean counters as the lowest form of life, but unlike us, they have access to the wole picture, and what it costs to run such an organization as the US military. Hell, since the dems in the Senate don't want to spend another 20 Billion dollars for operations in Iraq, the military has to take some funds from all four branches to support the operations. For example, a few days ago they announced that Air Force personell will probably take a pay cut if the funds are not given to the troops in Iraq by Congress. Just imagine all the costs to run a military, and then it becomes clear that 1 Billion dollars is something we cannot throw away on a rifle that doesn't really bring any major or life saving advantages to the troops.
 
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RockyMTNClimber    SOCOM Marine & New Rifles   5/1/2007 9:25:29 PM
 
Socom, Thank you for your service. Do you think that we need a new rifle? I am not convinced. Every service member who carries one that I know likes it. He/She will tell me that the M-16/M4 family has its issues, but they are issues they know and know how to handle. It seems to me that if we buy a new rifle en-masse we will have teething problems (that we don't know about yet) and that will cost lives in combat. The money is for more than the rifle remember, allot of logistical and training costs too.
 
When I saw the article you have referenced I immediately suspected the good Senator had a dog in the hunt and it was more about jobs & money in his district than a new requirement in the US military ( I have no proof, just a health skepticism).
 
If we need a new weapon, lets find the best one available. Have a real competition and find the best of the best.
 
I remain unconvinced of the need. Am I wrong?
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
 
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Horsesoldier       5/1/2007 9:26:40 PM
 


I can assure the guy on future weapons is not an idiot when it comes to weapons. Have you ever seen him fire any of the weapons, his accuracy is top notch and his tactics are still great (thus why SWAT units and the like let him train with them...whereas normal hosts would have to sit out). Most people would not understand the finer details of a weapon if he told them, so they spend most of the show showing action scenes and such to keep the majority interested.

I'm a fan of H&K. Their reliability seems to be top notch, and they build some excellent gear. I'm just saying that to SOF units, this is just another great option, not that this is the be all end all. 

 
He seems handy enough with a gun on the show (of course, with a good enough video editor, I'd guess I could look like the living incarnation of Death on Earth ), but when he opens his mouth he just tends to say some truly dumb things.  I'd like to think it's because his writers, like I previously said, make him dumb things down for the firearms illiterate.
 
Of course, the show never mentions why he's a former rather than serving SEAL, right?  But, anyway, it looks to me like he's got a pretty sweet gig and my inclination is that he's not as dumb as he sounds sometimes on the show.
As for HK -- personally, I'd say they're good, but that their reputation for excellence is kind of overblown and exaggerated.  Some of their products are truly superb (P7M8 referenced in another thread, for instance), and some of their stuff was really innovative in its time . . . but a lot of their stuff isn't as uber-cool as its reputation suggests when you actually get your hands on it.  The MP5, for instance, is quite a nice weapon . . . but you have to have gorilla sized hands to actually sweep the safety from safe to fire, and even then it's a sloppy kind of lock up that tends to breeze right past Semi to Auto when you're rushing for time or otherwise stressed.  (Ergonomics and control layout issues are pretty common complaints about a lot of the earlier HK weapons designs, they seem to have realized their mistakes with their latest crop of weapons, at least judging by the USP and G36.)   
 
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Horsesoldier       5/1/2007 9:36:52 PM


Horse, what is $1 billion to equip our grunts with top notch rifles to a nation who spends $10,000 on a toilet seat and feeds the USAF support staff crab legs/steak and veggies while the grunts eat $1 MRE's? 


My take on it is that Congress is not just going to magically pull a billion dollars out of a hat, right?  Somebody is going to get their budget cut to find that billion dollars and I'd suspect that it's not going to be some ineffective social program, or the Air Force's chow budget (or the USAF's Raptor budget, etc.), but it's going to be a case of taking something away from some other Army program, or making me and everyone else in uniform get a smaller pay raise, etc. 
 
I'd rather see a billion dollars spent on, say, bullets so troops can get more range time before going over to the sand box, or refinement of IED detection systems and countermeasures, expedited and wider fielding of RSTA systems and gear to locate bad guys, improved body armor, more language training for Big Army troops so they don't have to rely exclusively on local 'terps, etc.  There's a whole laundry list of things we need besides a rifle that works even better than the quite reliable and quite successful rifle we've got now.
 
 
(On a side note -- MRE's, frighteningly enough, cost more than a $1 per -- I think it is more like $7-8 per unit.  I say "frightening" because that means that everytime troops eat in a chow hall or a field feed with cooked hot rations, they're getting fed cheaper than an MRE . . . it can be a bit unsettling when the lids of the mermites are pulled off and you're staring at Grade D deep fried veal patties, etc.)   
 
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Horsesoldier       5/1/2007 9:59:31 PM

Does the 416 offer any improvement over the various alternative piston-operated AR uppers? IIRC alternatives to the direct gas impingement operating system of the AR have been around almost since the rifle entered military service. What makes the 416 so damn special, relative to the other products on the market? I must admit that I've never ridden the HK bandwagon, they've always seemed too much for too little, so my belief that they've found the next greatest thing since sliced bread may be a bit jaundiced.

Thanks,

Cato


 
 
Right, the HK 416 most definitely does nothing at all revolutionary in terms of operating system -- the idea has been around forever, even in the specific context of the AR platform, it just has never offered sufficient improvement to justify the expense of replacing the military inventory of weapons.
 
As for HK versus the other gas piston AR upper receivers out there . . . I don't have any first hand experience with the other contenders in the field (Patriot Ordnance, Leitner-Wise or Land Warfare or whatever they're called now, and Colt . . . maybe more).  The basic idea is not exactly rocket science, so I'd think it all comes down to quality (and attendant cost).  Actual cost is a bit of an apples and oranges thing, since HK won't sell the 416 to mere civilian shooters and I don't know the cost to government of the other models, but my suspicion is that Leitner-Wise and probably Colt's design do anything the 416 can do, just without the "as used in Ghost Recon VII" cachet.
 
 
I kind of think the whole thing comes back to the 1980s Advanced Combat Rifle (ACR) trials, where the US Army did spend millions looking for a replacement for the M16A2.  To justify the subsequent expenditure of billions to replace existing stocks of weapons, they were looking for a 100% increase in effectiveness over the M16A2.  Caseless ammo with integral optics (HK G11), hypervelocity flechettes with integral optics (Steyr ACR and one of the other entrants) and even duplex ammo in a souped up M16 variant from Colt (also with optics, I believe) all failed to meet the 100% threshold.  I kind of see the HK416 in much the same way -- nice weapon, solid performer, but just a modest improvement over what we've got. 
 
Same operating system married to cased telescoping ammo, or caseless ammo, or some other new technology that changes the basic equation of infantry weapons -- spend the money.  For just another conventional cartridge case firing, conventional layout rifle that's somewhat more reliable than an already reliable weapon . . .
 
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GOP       5/1/2007 10:17:48 PM





Horse, what is $1 billion to equip our grunts with top notch rifles to a nation who spends $10,000 on a toilet seat and feeds the USAF support staff crab legs/steak and veggies while the grunts eat $1 MRE's? 




My take on it is that Congress is not just going to magically pull a billion dollars out of a hat, right?  Somebody is going to get their budget cut to find that billion dollars and I'd suspect that it's not going to be some ineffective social program, or the Air Force's chow budget (or the USAF's Raptor budget, etc.), but it's going to be a case of taking something away from some other Army program, or making me and everyone else in uniform get a smaller pay raise, etc. 

 

I'd rather see a billion dollars spent on, say, bullets so troops can get more range time before going over to the sand box, or refinement of IED detection systems and countermeasures, expedited and wider fielding of RSTA systems and gear to locate bad guys, improved body armor, more language training for Big Army troops so they don't have to rely exclusively on local 'terps, etc.  There's a whole laundry list of things we need besides a rifle that works even better than the quite reliable and quite successful rifle we've got now.

 

 

(On a side note -- MRE's, frighteningly enough, cost more than a $1 per -- I think it is more like $7-8 per unit.  I say "frightening" because that means that everytime troops eat in a chow hall or a field feed with cooked hot rations, they're getting fed cheaper than an MRE . . . it can be a bit unsettling when the lids of the mermites are pulled off and you're staring at Grade D deep fried veal patties, etc.)   


You make some good points, but we are talking about $1 billion to an improved rifle. That's chump change compared to some of the bigger projects. Hey, I haven't fired any of them though so I am completely out of the loop on how the weapon truly works...if you don't feel it is worth it, then it probably isn't.
 
$8 for one MRE?!?!?! Jesus Christ, that is shocking to me. For about $8 I can have several extremely nutritious and tasty homecooked meals.
 
 
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mough       5/2/2007 2:36:04 AM











I hear ya, SCCOMarine, but I think the fact that the Pentagon is allowing the SEALS to buy and deploy the HK-416 is significant.  Perhaps after extended field use the brass will take notice and take another look at this weapon. 





Well, the Pentagon realizes that their best SOF unit should get to buy and deploy the best weapon availible, so of course they are letting the Teams deploy the HK. Just teasing guys.





Alot of former SEALs are working with H&K and they put alot of valuable input into making the weapon. I think the reason SEALs are so attracted to the weapon is the reliability. The Teams have been having a good bit of ops in desert enviroments lately, and of course alot of training ops in the water, so the HK 416's reliability in those enviroments is a extremely attractive to the Teams. I have a feeling that the SBS could be fielding the weapon soon aswell for.












Larry Vickers, gun God and former D-Boy was instrumental in developing the 416,

BTW, the 416/417 is already in/going to be in service with unit's outside the US, the Dutch have it, the Germans are in the process of getting it, the Canadians/Irish/Italians/Norweigians and a few others have them or are getting them, it's becoming a very popular choice



I didn't know that. I believe he was interviewed on "Futureweapons" I think, but I don't think they mentioned his unit/military experience.

With those nations fielding it, I wonder if it has any real combat experience? It must be an excellent weapon. I remember watching Future weapon, and they buried it in the sand and it fired, they held it under water and it fired, etc. I just hope we (The US) takes a more serious look at this weapon, not just the SOF units.

He was one of the assaulters who rescued Kurt Muse in "Operation acid gambit" in Panama, solid guy.

the 416 has been used in active operation by US forces...there are photos around the web if you know what to look for

 
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