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Subject: US Special Forces missions
bravoss    4/23/2007 5:54:26 PM
do army special forces carry out sabotage missions such as destroying enemy equipment, tanks, scuds etc or its left for other SOF units? Is it the most similar US unit compared to british SAS ?
 
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Horsesoldier       4/23/2007 6:50:42 PM

do army special forces carry out sabotage missions such as destroying enemy equipment, tanks, scuds etc or its left for other SOF units? Is it the most similar US unit compared to british SAS ?


Basically, yes, that mission would be something SF units could be tasked with.  SF ODAs were involved in the 1991 Gulf War Scud Hunt to provide a real world sort of answer to your question.  They're not the only US SOF unit that could be tasked with that mission set, however.  Direct comparison of US special operations forces to the SAS is a little apples and oranges, you could argue SF is the nearest US analog, or argue CAG is the nearest analog, kind of depends on what you base your comparison on. 
 
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longrifle       4/23/2007 7:35:01 PM
Yes, but SF can be more effective when used as force multipliers than as raiders.  Instead of raiding as a unit themselves the ideal would be for SF to organize, train, advise, and lead a unit of indigenous troops on a raid.  Good examples of this would be OSS Detachment 101's operations in Burma with the Kachin tribesmen and the 5th SFG (A)'s Mobile Strike and Mobile Guerrilla Forces in Vietnam.  I think those operations accomplished much more than using the SF troops by themselves as some sort of hunter/killer or raider team would have.

Having said that, to make the ideal a reality they need to have some indigenous troops with good potential and the time to train them.  Not always possible.


 
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dirtykraut       4/25/2007 8:43:44 PM
bravoss, the bread and butter of US Army Special Forces is foreign international defense. (with occaisonal unconventional warfare missions). They go around the world to teach soldiering and other skills to other nations. They are basically the diplomatic corps with guns. This is why each group is assigned a different AO on different continents/parts of the world. For example, 10th Special Forces Group is assigned to Europe (though not so much work is done in Western Europe, as they tend to have more developed militaries). They will go to places in Central and Eastern Europe and teach a group of soldiers. This is their mission, and it is what they do 90% of the time when they are not training, or off work. However, they are very well rounded, and are as versatile as the SAS. They are one of our closest equivalents to the SAS. They differ in their selectiveness. Less than 10% of soldiers who start SAS selection and training  finish. Around 20% of soldiers will pass SFAS and the Q course in the US Army. CAG is another equivalent, they are tasked with Counter Terrorism, Reconnaissence, preemptive strikes, and other direct action missions. I like to call them the main trigger pullers of US SOF, along with DEVGRU of course. CAG is similar to the SAS in their selectiveness. It is said that the highest selection rate for the 4 week selection course in CAG was 7%, this was in 1978, Haney's calss, and many of these guys were veterans from LRRP's, SOG's and SF from the Vietnam war. It is safe to say that the normal selection rate now is much lower, and keep in mind that most of these guys trying out are SOF from other branches of the Army and Military.
 
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GOP       4/25/2007 11:45:32 PM

do army special forces carry out sabotage missions such as destroying enemy equipment, tanks, scuds etc or its left for other SOF units? Is it the most similar US unit compared to british SAS ?
Yes, they do. No need for much sabotage anymore though, as smart bombs and lasers can do the same thing with a much higher success rate (now, if the US is not actively involved in a war with a country, then SAD would be more likely to pull of "sabotage" missions and such). The SCUD hunting pre-gulf war is an example of "sabotage", but it was carried about by alot of SOF units. Remember, like I said earlier, "sabotage" is mainly obsolete and/or carried out by shadowy units in the CIA. The SCUD hunting nowadays could be carried out by a ton of units, basically any unit ("regular" or otherwise) that can do any RECCE/Long Range RECCE who knows how to use CAS could hunt SCUDS almost as well as the super high speed units. Heck, there are small units in regular infantry divisions who oculd do that job if need be.

CAG is the most comparable to the SAS. They basically have the same exact TO&E/skill set/training programs/etc/etc as CAG was the brainchild of Charles Beckwith, who after serving in an exchange with the SAS, felt the US needed a similar unit with similar capabilities. Even the selection course is nearly identical. Don't get caught up in the SAS/CAG hype though, there are other excellent CT units out there aswell. DEVGRU, GIGN, KSK, and certain units in the SASR...among others.
 
Bravoss, what are your goals? I remember reading where you are in the Balkins and want to serve in a Western Special tactics unit (either police or military).
 
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bravoss       5/6/2007 5:25:55 PM
thanks alot for the answers. sorry it took me so long to answer. GOP, i decided to finish my studies here, and when i finish i'll look for opportunities to go to live in germany. i want to finish the college here first or try to get into a german college.
About CAG i thought when compared to SAS its apple and oranges too, because CAG as far as i know is mostly orientated on CT missions(while SAS is very versatile group, and they dont have 'dedicated' CT group, all squads go serving in the CT group every 6 months),the only operation of other type i heard they did was that thing with scud missiles in gulf war.
So, i think dirtykraut gave a great explanation about the SF, they are trained for many kinds of operations but almost always used for training troops. Thats why they probably shouldnt be compared to SAS or KSK, because these units dont stress training indigenous forces like SF does. But which US unit is mostly used for raids, reconnaisance and such operations, maybe the navy seals or force recon ? To me its pretty confusing why SF are trained in so many types of operations if they are so rarely used for anything else except training indigenous troops, especially because there are many other SOF units that could do the job. Are the Navy Seals more similar group to SAS and KSK ? I know that they are counterparts to Kampfschwimmer and SBS.

 
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bravoss       5/6/2007 6:08:48 PM
and one more question if i may ask about the Seal Team 6 and CAG. When looking at the type of operations they are mainly trained for, and not which branch  they belong to, i have always seen them more similar to police CT units such as GIGN and GSG-9 than to units that work behind enemy lines conducting raids etc such as SAS or KSK. Like they are military units because of the laws, so they can operate outside the country, but they actually do the same things as LE units like GSG9, GIGN or HRT. Am i right, or these units are trained for much more types of operations?
 
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Horsesoldier       5/6/2007 10:42:28 PM

bravoss, the bread and butter of US Army Special Forces is foreign international defense. (with occaisonal unconventional warfare missions). They go around the world to teach soldiering and other skills to other nations. They are basically the diplomatic corps with guns. This is why each group is assigned a different AO on different continents/parts of the world. For example, 10th Special Forces Group is assigned to Europe (though not so much work is done in Western Europe, as they tend to have more developed militaries). They will go to places in Central and Eastern Europe and teach a group of soldiers. This is their mission, and it is what they do 90% of the time when they are not training, or off work.
You're confusing peacetime taskings with war time missions.  SF's bread and butter mission for most of its existence was not FID, it was the other side of that coin -- unconventional warfare.  Since the end of the Cold War, SF has moved more in the direction of DA as its core mission in war zones.  FID training missions have largely been handed over to other organizations like the USMC and conventional units of the National Guard except where the mission has politically sensitive elements that preclude giving it to other folks.
 
Groups are not assigned as AO to assist them with diplomatic work (if it was, I'd have to ask why 1st, 3rd, 7th, and 10th Groups, as well as those battalions of 19th and 20th Groups that have not Middle Eastern tasking or specialization, have all found their way into Iraq and Afghanistan with no real difference in effectiveness compared to 5th SFG, who is optimized for operation in that region).  They are assigned regional specialization to assist them with a whole range of special operations missions -- language skills and cultural knowledge are quite useful (though not absolutely necessary) for the entire range of special operations missions.
 
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GOP       5/6/2007 10:49:00 PM

and one more question if i may ask about the Seal Team 6 and CAG. When looking at the type of operations they are mainly trained for, and not which branch  they belong to, i have always seen them more similar to police CT units such as GIGN and GSG-9 than to units that work behind enemy lines conducting raids etc such as SAS or KSK. Like they are military units because of the laws, so they can operate outside the country, but they actually do the same things as LE units like GSG9, GIGN or HRT. Am i right, or these units are trained for much more types of operations?


CAG and DEVGRU can do every SOF task in the book. Seriously. They are just like the other Tier 1 guys.
 
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Horsesoldier       5/6/2007 11:05:37 PM

and one more question if i may ask about the Seal Team 6 and CAG. When looking at the type of operations they are mainly trained for, and not which branch  they belong to, i have always seen them more similar to police CT units such as GIGN and GSG-9 than to units that work behind enemy lines conducting raids etc such as SAS or KSK. Like they are military units because of the laws, so they can operate outside the country, but they actually do the same things as LE units like GSG9, GIGN or HRT. Am i right, or these units are trained for much more types of operations?

CAG and DEVGRU/ST6 were originally founded as military counter-terrorism units.  That is not the limit of their mission set, however, and they (or component subunits) can and do perform pretty much the whole spectrum of special operations missions (and some less normally "special" ones under special circumstances).
 
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dirtykraut       5/7/2007 6:19:08 AM
Horsesoldier, your the expert on this matter. It is true that during wartime US Army SF is performing UW missions. However, wars only come around once in a while, so I imagine that over a 20 year period, Army SF would do more FID than UW. That's what I meant by bread and butter. But I have to ask, is Army SF doing much UW in Iraq these days? Considering the Iraqis have a government and it's own army, wouldn't most missions in Iraq fall under FID? Where is most of the UW taking place these days?
 
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