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Subject: US Special Forces missions
bravoss    4/23/2007 5:54:26 PM
do army special forces carry out sabotage missions such as destroying enemy equipment, tanks, scuds etc or its left for other SOF units? Is it the most similar US unit compared to british SAS ?
 
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ingnoway       5/16/2007 7:27:43 PM



do army special forces carry out sabotage missions such as destroying enemy equipment, tanks, scuds etc or its left for other SOF units? Is it the most similar US unit compared to british SAS ?



Basically, yes, that mission would be something SF units could be tasked with.  SF ODAs were involved in the 1991 Gulf War Scud Hunt to provide a real world sort of answer to your question.  They're not the only US SOF unit that could be tasked with that mission set, however.  Direct comparison of US special operations forces to the SAS is a little apples and oranges, you could argue SF is the nearest US analog, or argue CAG is the nearest analog, kind of depends on what you base your comparison on. 


 
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ingnoway    Sabatoge   5/16/2007 8:14:38 PM






do army special forces carry out sabotage missions such as destroying enemy equipment, tanks, scuds etc or its left for other SOF units? Is it the most similar US unit compared to british SAS ?




Basically, yes, that mission would be something SF units could be tasked with.  SF ODAs were involved in the 1991 Gulf War Scud Hunt to provide a real world sort of answer to your question.  They're not the only US SOF unit that could be tasked with that mission set, however.  Direct comparison of US special operations forces to the SAS is a little apples and oranges, you could argue SF is the nearest US analog, or argue CAG is the nearest analog, kind of depends on what you base your comparison on. 


That is what they were really formed for.



 
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Horsesoldier       5/17/2007 1:31:00 PM
 

I have heard criticisms of the close protection capability of DEVGRU, and that they often react violently and indiscriminately to threats. In terms of shooting, is it possible DEVGRU is just as proficient in CAG? Yes, but I doubt it. And the very fact that Marcinko always tried to compare and contrast the shooting abilities of DEVGRU and CAG is proof that he went many sleepless nights worrying that his boys just may not be the best combat shooters in the world. However, that's my opinion,  and it's a biased one.



Dirtykraut, don't take what I'm about to say as a personal attack or as me being disrespectful to you, BUT...I highly doubt anyone you have heard this from is either A) credible, or B) has worked with DEVGRU or knows anything about their ops. DEVGRU's capabilities aren't well known, as almost all of their ops are classified in some way. 

It's actually open source stuff from quite credible sources.  Poor performance of SEALs on PSD assignments in Afghanistan very early in our operations there was kind of the keystone event that opened the door for all the private military corporation contracting (Blackwater, Triple Canopy, etc.) that has been going on for the last few years.   
The lackluster performance of SEALs doing PSD work in Afghanistan is open source stuff and has been stated by reliable folks from the community, etc.  It's also pretty much the issue that opened the door for the modern boom in PMC contracting work -- SEALs lacked the mind set and such for the job, so they had to find someone
 
I don't know what close protection is, I'm guessing you mean bodygaurd duty? In that case, you may very well be correct.
 
Close protection/Personal Security Detail/etc -- yep, body guard work.  While there is some specialized training relevant to that sort of thing, the idea early on in Afghanistan was any group of operators could do it.  SEALs proved the powers that be wrong.  (They weren't the only ones, for what it is worth, and farming those missions out to PMCs probably does really make a good deal of sense, in my opinion.)
 
 
As far as responding violently and without regard, I would love to hear the source of that info. These aren't college aged virgin soldiers, these are the best SEALs in the Teams. I highly, highly doubt that they respond without regard. Now, here is what I will say. NAVSPECWAR has some serious fu(kups in their officer ranks, and some of them make their way into DEVGRU...if you are speaking of some specific incidents in A'stan, then you might be correct.
 
Again, he's discussing some open-source incidents that have been written about here and there, rather than (I assume) a general trend or tendency or whatever.
 
 
 
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dirtykraut       5/17/2007 2:44:09 PM
GOP, I don't take what you said personally. However, I am going to have to ask you to return the favor.
 
Let me start by saying that your a smart kid and you know your ass from your elbow about different Special Operations units, what they do and how they are used. However, you have to remember where your information comes from. Now I don't claim to have a fraction of the expertise Horse Soldier or Mough does on this matter, but I was in the army for 8 years. Knowledge comes from experience my friend. It does not come from books, second hand accounts, or anecdotal stories of any SOF unit. Remember when it comes to experience, you have none. You may doubt  that I have never seen CAG or DEVGRU at the range, but I know you haven't. I'm glad you stick to your guns GOP, but it is true that the SEALS performance over the past few years has been less than stellar. This is a very serious business, and while I agree that bashing another unit/branch of service 9 out of ten times is the result of insecurity on the part of the bashers. This isn't your usual Army vs. Marines, or British army vs. US Army, in which the arguments are baseless. People from the SOF community are telling you that the SEALS performance has been lackluster over the past few years. They have not said the same about EOD or SWCC. So this isn't just another branch of service rivalry thing. SOF units for the most part are above the kind of rivalry in which they need to bash another unit out of insecurity, so when the unit that they keep bashing is the SEALS, something is definately wrong with the way they have been doing things. And it isn't just army guys who have been saying this. But as for an open source, here it is: http://www.sftt.us/302KARQ.pdf  ;
 
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dirtykraut       5/17/2007 3:22:21 PM
Having said all that, I do respect the SEALS. They are excellent individuals, even if a wee bit arrogant. I know I probably would not have the determination to pass BUD/S. As other people on this forum have stated, they over specialize, when thier main function should be combat swimming. However, I do not necessarily believe that they shouldn't be used as infantrymen in the current war on terror, they are an elite bunch who want their guns in the fight. All this means is that there are too many SEALS, and that there is simply not enough for them to do. They should cut SEAL personell by 75%, we don't need 2500 of them. The money and resources used on equipping and training these SEALS could be used elsewhere. And instead of only devoting 3-4 weeks of combat swimming in SQT, the whole course should cover this. The problem is that many in the community feel that they are not getting a reasonable return on their investment (in the SEALS). The very specialized nature of their work calls for specialized training. And it will be a great day when they put the Navy back in SEALS.
 
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ingnoway    Elite   5/18/2007 1:58:31 PM

Having said all that, I do respect the SEALS. They are excellent individuals, even if a wee bit arrogant. I know I probably would not have the determination to pass BUD/S. As other people on this forum have stated, they over specialize, when thier main function should be combat swimming. However, I do not necessarily believe that they shouldn't be used as infantrymen in the current war on terror, they are an elite bunch who want their guns in the fight. All this means is that there are too many SEALS, and that there is simply not enough for them to do. They should cut SEAL personell by 75%, we don't need 2500 of them. The money and resources used on equipping and training these SEALS could be used elsewhere. And instead of only devoting 3-4 weeks of combat swimming in SQT, the whole course should cover this. The problem is that many in the community feel that they are not getting a reasonable return on their investment (in the SEALS). The very specialized nature of their work calls for specialized training. And it will be a great day when they put the Navy back in SEALS.


What is meant by"Elite?" I see real world training, and nothing more.
Is that what "Elite" means?
 
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ingnoway    over specialed   5/21/2007 4:23:19 PM

Having said all that, I do respect the SEALS. They are excellent individuals, even if a wee bit arrogant. I know I probably would not have the determination to pass BUD/S. As other people on this forum have stated, they over specialize, when thier main function should be combat swimming. However, I do not necessarily believe that they shouldn't be used as infantrymen in the current war on terror, they are an elite bunch who want their guns in the fight. All this means is that there are too many SEALS, and that there is simply not enough for them to do. They should cut SEAL personell by 75%, we don't need 2500 of them. The money and resources used on equipping and training these SEALS could be used elsewhere. And instead of only devoting 3-4 weeks of combat swimming in SQT, the whole course should cover this. The problem is that many in the community feel that they are not getting a reasonable return on their investment (in the SEALS). The very specialized nature of their work calls for specialized training. And it will be a great day when they put the Navy back in SEALS.



In what area? Can you elaborate, or not? It's a fact:That if didn't say it the first time, you will lie, the second time.
And you are a"plagarist."
 
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GOP       5/22/2007 2:27:16 PM

GOP, I don't take what you said personally. However, I am going to have to ask you to return the favor.

 

Let me start by saying that your a smart kid and you know your ass from your elbow about different Special Operations units, what they do and how they are used. However, you have to remember where your information comes from. Now I don't claim to have a fraction of the expertise Horse Soldier or Mough does on this matter, but I was in the army for 8 years. Knowledge comes from experience my friend. It does not come from books, second hand accounts, or anecdotal stories of any SOF unit. Remember when it comes to experience, you have none. You may doubt  that I have never seen CAG or DEVGRU at the range, but I know you haven't. I'm glad you stick to your guns GOP, but it is true that the SEALS performance over the past few years has been less than stellar. This is a very serious business, and while I agree that bashing another unit/branch of service 9 out of ten times is the result of insecurity on the part of the bashers. This isn't your usual Army vs. Marines, or British army vs. US Army, in which the arguments are baseless. People from the SOF community are telling you that the SEALS performance has been lackluster over the past few years. They have not said the same about EOD or SWCC. So this isn't just another branch of service rivalry thing. SOF units for the most part are above the kind of rivalry in which they need to bash another unit out of insecurity, so when the unit that they keep bashing is the SEALS, something is definately wrong with the way they have been doing things. And it isn't just army guys who have been saying this. But as for an open source, here it is:http://www.sftt.us/302KARQ.pdf  ;" target=_blank>link


Dirtykraut, I don't take anything you said personally at all. I understand I have no experience, but most on this site have no experience in SOF. I'm unbiased nowdays, I had tunnel vision for a while and just focused on being a SEAL, and now things have changed. However, the only guys who have knocked SEALs here is Horsesoldier and you. Neither of you are in SOF.
Basically, my view recently has been this: The Navy has 2500 highly motivated, extremely fit, extremely smart and well adaptable combat swimmers, but have no use for them. So, they have been training for MOUT/Land warfare because of the current GWOT and the need for SOF operators...so at least the guys are getting some work.
 
Now, DEVGRU is on a completely different level, which is where my argument starts. Saying that CAG is superior to DEVGRU is sort of ridiculous, as honestly NONE of us here outside of Mough have any idea what goes on inside of these units at all.
 
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dirtykraut       5/22/2007 7:40:24 PM
GOP what you say is true. I am not in an SOF unit and am not qualified to make such judgements based on experience. However, I am telling you what my experiences with SOF personell, and those who have worked with them. Horsesoldier is as qualified as any to speal on this subject, even though (I believe) he is in a support role for an SOF unit. That means he is in an SOF unit. But I did not insult the SEALS. I simply stated that CAG is a more capable unit for what it does, and that's my opinion. However, you will find that more people agree with that opinion than you will find people who disagree with it. As you said, they are 2500 extremely capable, well fit men. But they have nothing to do, because there are many units that already do MOUT/land warfare, and when MARSOC comes around, the bean counters may just take a look at the SEALS and conclude that they have nothing special to bring to the table. Is it even their fault that this has happened. Probably not. But things change. And I am not advocating that the SEALS are not excellent warriors, I am advocating a substantial personell cut, and some serious changes to SQT, PRODEV, ULT and Squadron Training (BUD/S is fine the way it is). We need the SEALS to be combat swimmers, not combat swimmers/everything else. Besides, MOUT and land warfare should be a job for infantry. We don't need to take 2500 exceptionally skilled well fit men and make them into infantrymen. We need those 2500 men to be cut to 500 men, and to concentrate on combat swimming.
 
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dirtykraut       5/22/2007 7:56:04 PM




Having said all that, I do respect the SEALS. They are excellent individuals, even if a wee bit arrogant. I know I probably would not have the determination to pass BUD/S. As other people on this forum have stated, they over specialize, when thier main function should be combat swimming. However, I do not necessarily believe that they shouldn't be used as infantrymen in the current war on terror, they are an elite bunch who want their guns in the fight. All this means is that there are too many SEALS, and that there is simply not enough for them to do. They should cut SEAL personell by 75%, we don't need 2500 of them. The money and resources used on equipping and training these SEALS could be used elsewhere. And instead of only devoting 3-4 weeks of combat swimming in SQT, the whole course should cover this. The problem is that many in the community feel that they are not getting a reasonable return on their investment (in the SEALS). The very specialized nature of their work calls for specialized training. And it will be a great day when they put the Navy back in SEALS.




What is meant by"Elite?" I see real world training, and nothing more.
Is that what "Elite" means?


Elite meaning a select group of men who perform, well, are supposed to perform a specific mission.
 
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