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Subject: MARSOC, ordered out of Afghanistan...
mough    3/24/2007 8:45:57 AM
Marine unit ordered out of Afghanistan ROBERT BURNS Associated Press WASHINGTON - Marines accused of shooting and killing civilians after a suicide bombing in Afghanistan are under U.S. investigation, and their entire unit has been ordered to leave the country, officials said Friday. Army Maj. Gen. Francis H. Kearney III, head of Special Operations Command Central, ordered the unit of about 120 Marines out of Afghanistan and initiated an investigation into the March 4 incident, said Lt. Col. Lou Leto, spokesman at Kearney's command headquarters in Tampa, Fla. It is highly unusual for any combat unit, either special operations or conventional, to have its mission cut short. A spokesman for the Marine unit, Maj. Cliff Gilmore, said it is in the process of leaving Afghanistan, but he declined to provide details on the timing and new location, citing a need for security. In the March 4 incident in Nangahar province, an explosives-rigged minivan crashed into a convoy of Marines that U.S. officials said also came under fire from gunmen. As many as 10 Afghans were killed and 34 wounded as the convoy made an escape. Injured Afghans said the Americans fired on civilian cars and pedestrians as they sped away. U.S. military officials said militant gunmen shot at Marines and may have caused some of the civilian casualties. President Hamid Karzai condemned the incident, which was one among several involving U.S. forces in which civilians were killed and injured. Leto, the spokesman at Special Operations Command Central headquarters, said the Marines, after being ambushed, responded in a way that created "perceptions (that) have really damaged the relationship between the local population and this unit." Therefore, he said, "the general felt it was best to move them out of that area." Gilmore said the Marine company would complete its overseas deployment with the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit, which is the larger unit it sailed with from Camp Lejeune, N.C., in January, but it will no longer operate in Afghanistan. Of the four Marine Special Operations Command companies that have been established since the command was created in February 2006, the one ordered out of Afghanistan was the first to deploy abroad, Gilmore said. By September 2008 there are to be nine companies operating as part of two special operations battalions, he said. For years the Marines resisted creating special operations units, arguing that would run counter to their philosophy of viewing all Marines as elite fighters and not singling out elements as special. But former Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld pressed them to establish a separate command - the Marine Special Operations Command - to train and equip forces for the multi-service Special Operations Command. There are about 25,000 U.S. troops in Afghanistan, mostly conventional combat forces and support units whoops
 
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SCCOMarine       3/28/2007 4:27:22 PM
Well I'm glad to see so much ME bashing on you guys spare time. 
 
GOP...I don't do anything different than you when HS starts busting your balls about the SEALs, but they're a group known to the posters on this site so you don't have to spend much time explaining sh't.
 
But whatever!
 
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SCCOMarine       3/28/2007 5:01:57 PM
But about the issue at hand, the central point is your talking about a multi-dimension ambush in a crowded area.  From the reports I've read it was a well coordinated assault from almost all sides and the volume of fire was intense, anybody who wouldn't there way out of that type of ambush is a fool.
 
There's no hearts and minds to be won in those 45sec.
 
Whats funny is last year in A'stan, I believe it was in the summer, SOF called in airstrikes in on 2 compounds on different occassions killing about 70 or 80 suspected Taliban each, but also 10 or 15 civ's killed each.  The Afghani's made a stink, Karzai condemned it and said it could've been handled differently, but there were no expulsions from SOCCENT.
 
 
 
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BadNews       3/28/2007 5:07:43 PM

But about the issue at hand, the central point is your talking about a multi-dimension ambush in a crowded area.  From the reports I've read it was a well coordinated assault from almost all sides and the volume of fire was intense, anybody who wouldn't there way out of that type of ambush is a fool.

 

There's no hearts and minds to be won in those 45sec.

 

Whats funny is last year in A'stan, I believe it was in the summer, SOF called in airstrikes in on 2 compounds on different occassions killing about 70 or 80 suspected Taliban each, but also 10 or 15 civ's killed each.  The Afghani's made a stink, Karzai condemned it and said it could've been handled differently, but there were no expulsions from SOCCENT.

 

 


Hey Kid it is pretty clear that this is political. I have seen nothing or heard nothing that would indicate other wise. You are dead right.
Again, if there was some wrong doing, someones head would have been on the block by now, it appears to me, and this is an opinion, that the SOCCOM General may have over reacted to this.
 
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SCCOMarine       3/28/2007 5:37:52 PM
If this was another unit it wouldn't even be an issue.  But somehow this calls into question their ability as Spec. Operators.  In Mogidishu while trying to get out of the city if the Rangers or Delta would have been hit w/a similar ambush do you think that they would have hestitated to pull the trigger....FU(K NO!!
 
But lets put it into perspective, a Marine convoy was Broad Sided by a suicide car bomb while trapped in a multi-dimension kill zone and they made it out w/ no one killed and only one Marine slightly injuried.
 
When MARSOC was formed SOCOM Commander Gen Brown said "No one questions their ability."  But there was a question about something else.  It was a question every major military analyst asked.  "How would MARSOC be recv'd?"
 
I guess they have their answer.
 
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GOP       3/28/2007 6:44:06 PM

Well I'm glad to see so much ME bashing on you guys spare time. 

 

GOP...I don't do anything different than you when HS starts busting your balls about the SEALs, but they're a group known to the posters on this site so you don't have to spend much time explaining sh't.

 

But whatever!


SCCO, that was more of a joke than a serious statement. Like I said before, your cool.
 
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SCCOMarine       3/28/2007 6:52:56 PM
Yeah I know,  its nothing.
 
You don't go thru almost 6yrs in the Corps w/out being able to take somebody bustin your chops!
 
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GOP       3/28/2007 10:04:48 PM

If this was another unit it wouldn't even be an issue.  But somehow this calls into question their ability as Spec. Operators.  In Mogidishu while trying to get out of the city if the Rangers or Delta would have been hit w/a similar ambush do you think that they would have hestitated to pull the trigger....FU(K NO!!

 

But lets put it into perspective, a Marine convoy was Broad Sided by a suicide car bomb while trapped in a multi-dimension kill zone and they made it out w/ no one killed and only one Marine slightly injuried.

 

When MARSOC was formed SOCOM Commander Gen Brown said "No one questions their ability."  But there was a question about something else.  It was a question every major military analyst asked.  "How would MARSOC be recv'd?"

 

I guess they have their answer.


The real issue to me isn't the MARSOC incident, I think those guys are awesome. My area of concern is the complexity of the ambush...I mean, the enemy seems to be learning and adapting, that seems to be a great ambush tactically. MARSOC did a good job of not dying or getting hurt, but they probably killed a few civilians on their way out of the kill zone
 
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Yimmy       3/28/2007 10:10:10 PM

If this was another unit it wouldn't even be an issue.  But somehow this calls into question their ability as Spec. Operators. 
Yes, it does.  If they were line infantry, such following of standard infantry ROE's of responding to an ambush with superior firepower would be understandable, however as "special operators", perhaps they should have known better?
 
This is obviously a political move, in removing the unit to appease the Afghanis.  However the action could set back our efforts in the region by months, as people do not forget civilian deaths easily.
 
 
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BadNews    GOP & YIMMY   3/28/2007 10:29:50 PM
GOP:  They have been improving their tactics all along, just look at the last few weeks in both countries. Suicide Bomber pulls to target with children in car, exploding CHlorine Tanker trucks, the thing to remember is so are we. The very nature of warfare requires combatants to adapt and overcome. While I believe from what I have been reading things are getting better in both countries, it ain't over yet. And there will be reversals and unexpected attacks.
 
Yimmy, I agree with you that it wouldn't of mattered who was involved in the firefight, Afganistan is balancing new government with returned insurgency. Hamid Karzai must show that he is in control and that means we may see more units being redeployed or criticized/
 
Both GOP and Yimmy, while civilian casualties are inevidable going to be blamed on the Marines, I have read several accounts of this, some articles actual print the entire story, it appears that civilian casualties were inflicted by both the Marines and the Terrorist. It must have been one intense firefight.
 
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GOP       3/29/2007 2:42:47 PM

GOP:  They have been improving their tactics all along, just look at the last few weeks in both countries. Suicide Bomber pulls to target with children in car, exploding CHlorine Tanker trucks, the thing to remember is so are we. The very nature of warfare requires combatants to adapt and overcome. While I believe from what I have been reading things are getting better in both countries, it ain't over yet. And there will be reversals and unexpected attacks.

 

Yimmy, I agree with you that it wouldn't of mattered who was involved in the firefight, Afganistan is balancing new government with returned insurgency. Hamid Karzai must show that he is in control and that means we may see more units being redeployed or criticized/

 

Both GOP and Yimmy, while civilian casualties are inevidable going to be blamed on the Marines, I have read several accounts of this, some articles actual print the entire story, it appears that civilian casualties were inflicted by both the Marines and the Terrorist. It must have been one intense firefight.


Yeah, but compared to AQ the Taliban appears to be amatuers. I read the book "Inside the Jihad...my life as a spy" about a guy who went to the camps in Afghanistan, and I think that most Americans are greatly underestimating Al Qaeda's ability.  As far as the cholorine bomb, that is scary that the insurgents pulled that off, but AQ has or had mustard gas artillery shells. Do you think we are improving at an equal rate as the bad guys?
As far as who the civilian casualties are blamed on, the MARSOC guys had no other choice in my opinion, now that I look at it. In that situation, it's either kill or be killed, and you have to do what you have to do. They probably used too much force, but they survived...that's what its all about, especially looking at it from their POV.
 
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