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Subject: What do SARCs do?
colts    2/2/2007 6:32:24 PM
a good friend of mine has wanted to be a navy seal his whole life, anyway his eye sight is way to bad and they said he cant get a waiver for it (he is in Corpsman A school right now in illinios) they said he might be able to get SARC, and he asked me to find out all i can about it. Ive done some research but cant find much detailed info. What I found out was that they are Corpsman attached to Force Recon battalions, and they go through all the same schools as FR. Is this true? and is there more?
 
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SCCOMarine       2/8/2007 9:27:50 PM

Don't get me wrong I am not against you, there are some minor issues we disagree on but on most you are dead on, but you have got to chill just a bit man''''    I know from your MOS and where you were deployed that you have some knowledge of what FR is capable of, and I know from personal experience that they are DA capable and infact very proficiaent, but when people start trying to compare in anyway andy SF unit, there will never be consesus, and the argument will never end.



If me and you(for ex.) are hving a disagreement about which unit is better thats one thing but thats not whats being said.  Whats stated is whats in the report that the Det's DA and Intel capabilities are on par with Tier I SOF.  That not SCCO saying it or badnews or Joe Schmoe. Thats the report.
 
I've never started a who's better.  I wrote what was in the report and everyone on the page got upset not me.  It was SOCOMs team of experts analysis of the Corps DA capabilities, not mine.  Its not even an argument.
 
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GOP       2/8/2007 9:28:36 PM
Before anyone takes my post wrong, I am not knocking the USMC at all. I have all the respect in the world for most Marines, but I have run across a few who are completely arrogant. SCCO appears to be the same way (he certainly isn't proving otherwise). I have nothing but respect for Det 1, and all SOF units. There is just no way on earth to prove which is better at which task, which is why it is so ridiculous to try to make an argument that so and so is better than so and so at such and such.
 
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GOP       2/8/2007 9:31:08 PM




Don't get me wrong I am not against you, there are some minor issues we disagree on but on most you are dead on, but you have got to chill just a bit man''''    I know from your MOS and where you were deployed that you have some knowledge of what FR is capable of, and I know from personal experience that they are DA capable and infact very proficiaent, but when people start trying to compare in anyway andy SF unit, there will never be consesus, and the argument will never end.





If me and you(for ex.) are hving a disagreement about which unit is better thats one thing but thats not whats being said.  Whats stated is whats in the report that the Det's DA and Intel capabilities are on par with Tier I SOF.  That not SCCO saying it or badnews or Joe Schmoe. Thats the report.

 

I've never started a who's better.  I wrote what was in the report and everyone on the page got upset not me.  It was SOCOMs team of experts analysis of the Corps DA capabilities, not mine.  Its not even an argument.


We simply stated that there was no way to prove it, and you got your panties in a wad and starting typing endless reports and calling names, etc. Each time, someone with experience in the field (Horsesoldier, etc) would tell their firsthand experience with Marines, and you would get even madder (I remember one of your immature name calling rants quite well). 
 
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BadNews    Ya KNOW WHAT   2/8/2007 9:52:25 PM
GOP and SCCO Both, I really kind am starting to like you guys, so please hear me. I have come to the conclusion here that it is personal between you two, Yes SCCO I read the report, we all know what you are trying to say, in that regard, GOP, we all see your point clearly.
 
So both, take a breadth,
 
Here is a little secret, SOCOM has long sought FR to become part of the SOCOM team, that is a fact, The MARINE CORPS chose not to link FR with SOCOM with the following rationale, "We Need These Assets ToBE Dedicated to The MEU" That is a fact.
 
When the USMC realized the in the current environment that partcipation in SOCOM was the right thing to do, and the time was now right, MARSOC was formed, at issue was how to evolve FR, when the concept was developed, DET 1 was what is commonly refered to in the USMC hierarchy, The Operational Exercise that determined that the concept was sound. The SOCOM report, in fact recognized that MARSOC was every bit as capable as other branches contributions to SOCOM. In officer speak, "SO AND SO EXCEEDED ALL EXECTATION etc/. etc,etc. " I have used similar lanquage in meritorious mast recommedations that I have written over the years, the intent is not better than  like some read it but pretty was , "HEY< YOU GUYS ARE DAMN GOOD" in officer speak.
 
Although both of you guys seem not intent to say one or the other is better, you both sort of come off that way on this particular issue.
 
Hey guys, we're all wearing read white and blue in our hearts
 
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SCCOMarine       2/9/2007 12:31:14 AM








Don't get me wrong I am not against you, there are some minor issues we disagree on but on most you are dead on, but you have got to chill just a bit man''''    I know from your MOS and where you were deployed that you have some knowledge of what FR is capable of, and I know from personal experience that they are DA capable and infact very proficiaent, but when people start trying to compare in anyway andy SF unit, there will never be consesus, and the argument will never end.








If me and you(for ex.) are hving a disagreement about which unit is better thats one thing but thats not whats being said.  Whats stated is whats in the report that the Det's DA and Intel capabilities are on par with Tier I SOF.  That not SCCO saying it or badnews or Joe Schmoe. Thats the report.



 



I've never started a who's better.  I wrote what was in the report and everyone on the page got upset not me.  It was SOCOMs team of experts analysis of the Corps DA capabilities, not mine.  Its not even an argument.




We simply stated that there was no way to prove it, and you got your panties in a wad and starting typing endless reports and calling names, etc. Each time, someone with experience in the field (Horsesoldier, etc) would tell their firsthand experience with Marines, and you would get even madder (I remember one of your immature name calling rants quite well). 


If your going to retell the story tell right.  For yrs people in the Spec ops world have wanted measure what Spec Units in the Corps were fully capable of.  In 2003 the Commandant of the Marine Corps, CMC, said here you go! Gave SOCOM 86 Marines and said do all the test and analysis you want to gauge our capabilities, and for the 1sttime ever a group of Marine were under the direct control of SOCOM.  After all the years they've deployed together they've never controlled the Marines.
What SOCOM found I wrote on my original thread.  I didn't say anyone was better than anyone.  People didn't like it & called me opinionated.  The funny thing was I hadn't wrote my opinion yet or said any one was better. You started acting like your feelings were hurt.  You turned it into a vs. thing.  You started a who's better than talk go back read it.  It didn't bother me my stance wasn't on a "better than" it was on the facts of the report, I knew how stupid it was to get in that argument.  "It is clear Det 1epotimizing special operations planning and execution", and that the DA and Intel capabilities are on par in Tier I SOF.  I didnt say it the report did.  That all my orig. post said. But ehh, I saw how tight you were hugging the SEALs nuts and couldn't help but jump in.  I wasn't ranting, I was insultanting, I like it I'm good at it.  I got 5 yrs exp.
 
Get it right, Horsesoldier's experience w/Marines is no exp.  His post had him mistaken the Corps' Yearly RifleQual which is pressure for Marines to maintain their pure shooting skills, as a Combat Shooting Course.  The Corps sends their Support Marines to combat courses Army Inf will never see, but the YRQ isn't 1 of them.  Like I said b4 just look at the MOUT training.  Beginning in '85 it was mandatory for all deploying Marines by the early 90's BEFORE "BHD" in '93.  I guess that wasn't the same training the BHD Rangers have said themselves they wish they had that day, but ehh....I could be wrong.
 
 
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SCCOMarine       2/9/2007 12:32:00 AM
And I hope you do make it to the SEALs one day b/c than you'll findout something you have trouble digesting right now.  Every SEAL whos worked with Marines has come to respect them, every SEAL every SF soldier.  I was in Rosa Rita in 2000 w/some Marine friends when we ran into some SEALs who had just come of a Deployment with Marines and brought us drinks just to talk about the Dep all night.  The ODA I worked w/ in Iraq requested 2 Marines to work w/them b/c they Knew in their exp. Marines fearless, disciplined, and well versed in tactics.
 
Ask the SEALs who've went to the Corps' S/S Schools and failed at the same percentage as the rest of the Marines, thinking they were better than the boot Marines in the Courses.
 
And as I stated b4 the Corps' greatest accololades come from outside the Corps' in the Immortal words of Navy SEAL LTCMD Mark Divine in his article "General" Malaise.  "The US Marine Corps has, once again, proven itself to be the best fighting force in the history of mankind."
 
The only one who has something to learn is you. 
 
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BadNews    SCCO   2/9/2007 1:07:48 AM
Young Man, I never questioned or Disputed the SOCOM report, Ever, And if you re-read the assesment of what I said, it basically supports your post, Working with and being under the SOCOM unbrella is saying the exact same thing, as far as horse soldier's statements, that's a GOP thing, that is another thread and I know that he misunderstood you, your reponse to him however, the name calling I mean, was a bit over the edge.
 
I tried, all that I have been saying is to chill a little, not disputing the report. so chill ok
 
You'll catch alot more flies with honey than you will with vinegar
 
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GOP       2/9/2007 1:10:32 AM


And I hope you do make it to the SEALs one day b/c than you'll findout something you have trouble digesting right now.  Every SEAL whos worked with Marines has come to respect them, every SEAL every SF soldier.  I was in Rosa Rita in 2000 w/some Marine friends when we ran into some SEALs who had just come of a Deployment with Marines and brought us drinks just to talk about the Dep all night.  The ODA I worked w/ in Iraq requested 2 Marines to work w/them b/c they Knew in their exp. Marines fearless, disciplined, and well versed in tactics.

 

Ask the SEALs who've went to the Corps' S/S Schools and failed at the same percentage as the rest of the Marines, thinking they were better than the boot Marines in the Courses.

 

And as I stated b4 the Corps' greatest accololades come from outside the Corps' in the Immortal words of Navy SEAL LTCMD Mark Divine in his article "General" Malaise.  "The US Marine Corps has, once again, proven itself to be the best fighting force in the history of mankind."

 

The only one who has something to learn is you. 



I can gaurantee you that every Marine who has worked with SEALs has the same respect. It's the nature of the business. The whole "USMC is the best fighting force in mankind" thing is sort of taken out of context...he didn't say "FR or DET 1 is the best at DA" as the SOCOM report states. Sure, the Corps has excellent infantry, but you are comparing apples to oranges. And they whole "SEALs thinking they are better than Marines out of boot" quote is ridiculous...come on, you certainly don't think that your average Marine compares to your average SEAL do you? Why don't you ask the former Recon Marines who go to BUD/S thinking they are better than your average Squid out of boot, and fail at the same percentages as the others...wait, I'm a SEAL nut hugger so it doesn't count, right?
The fact that you are so willing to argue about this issue on an open source is sort of amauterish, I'm sure you won't find your fellow FR Marines doing that...and I can gaurantee you that when I'm in the Teams, I won't be on strategypage talking sh*t about my fellow SOF operators...or trying to prove that one unit is better than another. Look, you have posted dozens of long, boring-a** articles about the superiority of Recon Marines. I could dig up articles written by SOCOM saying how SEALs are superior at DA than such and such unit.
 
Bottom line, and I won't you to read this and take this into account, until you work with SEALs and the other SOCOM units, then such a strong opinion on the subject means nothing. The article has merit, but I can dig up articles written by the extremely well respected sources saying how the Teams or SF or AFSOC or whomever is better at whatever. It doesn't matter at all. Look, the facts are that FR is primarily used for Recon purposes (especially in Afghanistan)...and they have performed admirably at that task. SEALs are going to primarily be taking on the DA missions and Combat Swimmer ops. SF is going to try to win the hearts and minds and do FID along with some DA ops, and AFSOC is going to call in the bombs, rescue downed pilots, and call in the Jets. Each and every small unit IS GOING TO HAVE IT'S STRENGTH'S AND WEAKNESSES, SO GENERALIZATIONS OF ENTIRE UNITS IS ABSOLUTELY, UTTERLY USELESS. I know you aren't doing that generalizations, but they are useless. How can you or me prove that 2,000 men that you don't know and haven't seen operate, who are under the command of someone else, whose primary mission task is completely different, and who have different weapons and tactics, are better than another 2,000 men that you don't know and haven't seen operate, who are under the command of someone else, whose primary mission tasks is completely different, and who have different weapons and tactics...again not saying you do that, but these pecker contests are useless. I respect the heck out of FR and Det 1, but I hate hearing about how they are equivalant in DA to the SMU's or the other Tier 2 units, because their is simply no way of proving that. I would love to claim that the Teams are the best at DA, but no matter how many articles I dig up, I simply can't prove it. So, let's just drop this entire discussion about the DA thing. Because most of the time, FR (in real missions) is going to be doing
 
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GOP       2/9/2007 1:14:23 AM
I also think this is a big misunderstanding as well. I thought that SCCO was a FR cheerleader, and I'm sure that he thought I was a SEAL cheerleader. I was wrong, and I apologize SCCO. No excuses. Hopefully we will learn to respect each other as contributers to this site, although we may still have slight disagreements here and there, which is OK...as it makes us both better/smarter in the longrun.
 
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