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Subject: Difference between CT teams and SWAT
bravoss    1/31/2007 2:03:24 PM
whats the difference between swat teams such as for example LAPD SWAT or german SEK and counter terrorist units such as GSG-9 or FBI HOSTAGE RESCUE TEAM. i know the SWAT teams and SEK operate state wide and GSG-9 and HRT operate country wide. is there a difference in their roles,i mean there must be because if there wasnt there wouldnt be a need for both units. is it that the CT units engage high risk missions such and SWAT teams are more of a unit for arresting criminals and doing some minor risk hostage rescues ? if someone knows,please explain. and also is there a big difference between the training. i'm also a bit confused because GSG-9 is taking part in SWAT world contest and it is not the SWAT team. thank you.
 
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bravoss       1/31/2007 2:05:04 PM
sorry for grammar errors, i was in hurry.
 
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longrifle       1/31/2007 7:19:19 PM
City/county SWAT teams function within their jurisdiction.  Whether the perp does or doesn't have a hostage is irrelevant when he's violated state law and not federal law.  You wouldn't call FBI HRT (assuming they were even close by) because some cranker beat his wife and then barricaded himself in his house and refused to come out.  That's a local issue.

SWAT also operates in a permissive environment (for the most part).  
 
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bravoss       2/1/2007 10:15:12 AM
thanks mate. i thought similar. so counter terrorist teams have harder and more rigorous training than swat,right?


 
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longrifle       2/1/2007 2:15:10 PM
Federal agenies and  the military have a much more rigerous training and selection progarm than most SWAT teams.  There might be a few exeptions - full time teams like Los Angeles - but most part time SWAT teams couldn't hope to approach the proficiecy levels of FBI HRT, Delta, etc. 

It's just common sense.  Most SWAT members are patrol officers first and get to train for SWAT about eight hours a month.  Most teams have the best patrol officers in their departments - men who stay in shape, shoot on their own, and are motivated - no doughnut cops, etc. 

We have a rigerous PT test twice a year and make the most of our training time each month, but eight hours is only eight hours no matter what.  Thankfully the average nationwide SWAT sniper shooting a couple of years ago was estimated at 51 yards.  Basically, across the street.  The longest recorded was 187 yards.  We're not  Delta and don't claim to be.  Fortunately we usually don't have to be.
 
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GOP       2/1/2007 2:30:33 PM

Federal agenies and  the military have a much more rigerous training and selection progarm than most SWAT teams.  There might be a few exeptions - full time teams like Los Angeles - but most part time SWAT teams couldn't hope to approach the proficiecy levels of FBI HRT, Delta, etc. 

It's just common sense.  Most SWAT members are patrol officers first and get to train for SWAT about eight hours a month.  Most teams have the best patrol officers in their departments - men who stay in shape, shoot on their own, and are motivated - no doughnut cops, etc. 

We have a rigerous PT test twice a year and make the most of our training time each month, but eight hours is only eight hours no matter what.  Thankfully the average nationwide SWAT sniper shooting a couple of years ago was estimated at 51 yards.  Basically, across the street.  The longest recorded was 187 yards.  We're not  Delta and don't claim to be.  Fortunately we usually don't have to be.

Wow, only 8 hours a month? Is that enough to even retain your skills? Not knocking you guys whatsoever, I just thought it was more like 16-20 hours a month. Yeah, most SWAT teams can't even compete on anywhere near the same level as Delta/ST6/HRT/GSG-9/etc because the Tier 1 guys train constantly, full time; have a huge budget to run high end training exercises; work with each other often and master certain entry techniques, etc; get top of the line gear; etc.
 
Just curious. I've been watching the "Dallas SWAT" and "Detroit SWAT" shows on TV, and they never handle any bank robberies/hostage situations. So who would handle hostage situations (like at a a bank, etc)...would the FBI SWAT team come in, or the local team, or would a FBI HRT unit come in?
 
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longrifle       2/1/2007 3:17:38 PM
GOP,

The prognosis isn't quite as bleak as you think.  Everybody usually gets a 40 hour school each year in addition to the monthly trainings.  Also consider the average callout involves one suspect.

Joe Bob gets drunk and beats his wife.  Wife runs out of the house and calls 911 from the neighbors.  Joe Bob refuses to come out when the cops show up.  Joe Bob has guns.

The cops have patrol units and snipers on the outer perimeter.  Negotiations might go on for hours.  If the entry team makes an entry sometimes it will be more of a probe than a dynamic entry (situation dependent), flash bangs and gas happen, of course, but not always.  So drunk out of shape Joe Bob who doesn't shoot that often might be up against one or two stacks of 4-5 cops each, not counting patrol units and snipers on the perimeter. 

Seldom are shots fired.  Joe Bob goes to jail. 

I've never shot or been on a callout where shooting occured; just laid out there on the perimeter and watched Joe Bob walking past windows through my rifle scope.

Patrol units will be first on scene to a robbery of any kind.  SWAT will respond if it isn't over before they can stage and get deployed.  Depending on what's being robbed the locals could be relieved by the feds, again, if the negotiations go on and on and they can get there before it's over. 



 
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Horsesoldier       2/1/2007 4:05:51 PM
Besides the big picture issues discussed already there are also a lot of differences down at the TTP/SOP level reflecting the fact that was mentioned earlier -- SWAT usually operates in a permissive environment.  Use of deadly force and rules of engagement also differ in some particulars due to the differences between law enforcement missions and military missions. 
 
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GOP       2/1/2007 4:29:04 PM

GOP,

The prognosis isn't quite as bleak as you think.  Everybody usually gets a 40 hour school each year in addition to the monthly trainings.  Also consider the average callout involves one suspect.

Joe Bob gets drunk and beats his wife.  Wife runs out of the house and calls 911 from the neighbors.  Joe Bob refuses to come out when the cops show up.  Joe Bob has guns.

The cops have patrol units and snipers on the outer perimeter.  Negotiations might go on for hours.  If the entry team makes an entry sometimes it will be more of a probe than a dynamic entry (situation dependent), flash bangs and gas happen, of course, but not always.  So drunk out of shape Joe Bob who doesn't shoot that often might be up against one or two stacks of 4-5 cops each, not counting patrol units and snipers on the perimeter. 

Seldom are shots fired.  Joe Bob goes to jail. 

I've never shot or been on a callout where shooting occured; just laid out there on the perimeter and watched Joe Bob walking past windows through my rifle scope.

Patrol units will be first on scene to a robbery of any kind.  SWAT will respond if it isn't over before they can stage and get deployed.  Depending on what's being robbed the locals could be relieved by the feds, again, if the negotiations go on and on and they can get there before it's over. 





I didn't mean to make it look that bad, but looking back at my post I guess I misworded alot of it. Basically, I think that the Tier 1 guys are in a league of their own, it's nothing against SWAT or any other unit. They are the best of the best, and evn the Tier 2 guys (like Army SF, the Teams, etc) can't really touch them.
 
LOL, Joe Bob's crises is what makes up 90% of the Dallas/Detroit SWAT shows.
 
So what is this "probe" entry thing? I have seen it on the TV shows listed above, but basically it kind of looks like they open a door quitely, and sneak in there before Joe Bob see's them or hears them...and they kind of point their guns at Joe Bob and say "get down" and that's it. Definitely anti-climatic for the show! I want to see them go in their like ST6/CAG, kick down doors, throw flash bangs, hit Joe Bob with their rifle butts, etc...but they just kind of knock on the door and tell Joe Bob to "get on the floor buddy"  
 
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longrifle       2/2/2007 12:14:16 AM
"So what is this "probe" entry thing?"
 
Less than a dynamic entry with gas and flashbangs where a good time is had by all. 
 
Probing to contact is usually done when you don't know exactly where the suspect is in the building.  One example would have a stick moving down a hallway and search teams breaking off to clear rooms. 
 
A covert entry is similar.  It usually involves peeking around corners and under doors with mirrors.   
 
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Horsesoldier       2/2/2007 8:46:05 AM

So what is this "probe" entry thing? I have seen it on the TV shows listed above, but basically it kind of looks like they open a door quitely, and sneak in there before Joe Bob see's them or hears them...and they kind of point their guns at Joe Bob and say "get down" and that's it. Definitely anti-climatic for the show! I want to see them go in their like ST6/CAG, kick down doors, throw flash bangs, hit Joe Bob with their rifle butts, etc...but they just kind of knock on the door and tell Joe Bob to "get on the floor buddy"  

Bear in mind that while "violence of action" is a watchword for both LE and military DA stuff, for law enforcement there's a much higher risk of "violence of action" being interpreted somewhere as "excessive force," etc.
Also, SWAT actions most places will differ from how military special operations do things right from the get go -- most LE agencies don't do explosive entry.  You'll notice on Dallas SWAT and such that those guys are really, really good at mechanical breaching, door pulls, etc.  For a military special operations unit, a lot of the entries those guys do with pull hooks, etc., would be done with explosives.  

 
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