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Subject: Difference between CT teams and SWAT
bravoss    1/31/2007 2:03:24 PM
whats the difference between swat teams such as for example LAPD SWAT or german SEK and counter terrorist units such as GSG-9 or FBI HOSTAGE RESCUE TEAM. i know the SWAT teams and SEK operate state wide and GSG-9 and HRT operate country wide. is there a difference in their roles,i mean there must be because if there wasnt there wouldnt be a need for both units. is it that the CT units engage high risk missions such and SWAT teams are more of a unit for arresting criminals and doing some minor risk hostage rescues ? if someone knows,please explain. and also is there a big difference between the training. i'm also a bit confused because GSG-9 is taking part in SWAT world contest and it is not the SWAT team. thank you.
 
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GOP       2/4/2007 1:04:42 AM
Sorry for the triple post.
 
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smitty237       2/4/2007 10:48:31 AM
Great point. While it's very true that SWAT has more operational experience than the Tier 1 CT units, that is very misleading. Serving a warrant for two bozo drug dealers is a completely different animal than clearing a terrorist compound in Afghanistan...the municipal SWAT team would be way out of it's league there. The quality of Tier 1 CT units just can't be compared to the municipal SWAT team. They are the best combat shooters in the world, spend hours in the kill house, train in HALO and helicopter insertion, train with other top notch units, etc. While local SWAT is taking down Joe Bozo's crackhouse, SEAL Team 6 is off in the fridgid waters off of Germany training with the SBS and Kampfschwimmers taking down an Oil Platform held by "terrorists" (other tier 1 operators). And while the municipal SRT team is serving the high risk warrant against jack doofus (the wifebeating drunk), CAG is off in England training with the SAS is CQB technique. SWAT does a great job at their mission tasks, but no one expects them to be able to do what a CAG/ST6/KSK/SAS/etc can do.
I don't mean to be rude at all, by the way.

Damn, son.  Not only do you dish on SWAT, but you had to do it THREE times.  That's cold.  In all seriousness, you reinforced the point I was trying to make, but I was mainly pointing out the difference between the missions and purpose of SWAT vs. CT.  I would take issue with the "Joe Bozo crackhouse" characterization.  Raids on drug houses are dangerous business, and in many cases a raid on a crackhouse in L.A. or a meth house in rural Missouri present some of the same threats as hitting a terrorist safe house in Pakistan or Colombia.  An AK-47 is an AK-47, whether it is fired in Compton or Karachi.  Sure, most raids end without a shot being fired, but you have to train for the worst case scenario.  Let me ask you this:  Which is harder, raiding a house understanding that you can only shoot the bad guy if he threatens to shoot you or someone else, or going into a house "weapons free", in which any armed or resisting subject can be shot on sight.  I bet even the Delta guys would admit that the first scenario would be a tough one to operate under and would require a lot of training and discipline. 
 
I still feel that the operational tempo point I made regarding experienced SWAT teams is an important one.  You can train all day long for weeks, but most operators will tell you that the best way to learn is to do it for real.  I believe that many of the top tier American SWAT units could be rather quickly trained up to a level where they could take down a terrorist held facility.  The hard part would be getting them trained up in the infiltration and exfiltration tactics (parachuting, scuba diving, and land navigation, among others) used by Delta, SAS, and ST6.  Were terrorists to attack a school or shopping mall in the United States it wouldn't be Delta, ST6, or even FBI HRT responding, but your local police SWAT team.  The situation becomes what is called in the police world an "active shooter" situation.  I've been meaning to write a post about this tactic and how it could apply to counter-terrorist situations, but have been putting it off. 
 
Here's an interesting sidenote:  Does anyone know what America's first dedicated counter terrorist unit was?  It wasn't SWAT or Seal Team 6, but LAPD SWAT.  SWAT was formed in the late 1960's by former LA Chief Daryl Gates to help the Department fight militant urban terrorist groups such as the Symbionese Liberation Army.  Most of the early members were military veterans and used military style tactics.  When Delta was formed in the mid to late 70's they consulted with civilian police SWAT units (not to mention the British SAS), who by that time had several years of experience in room clearing and CQB tactics.  To this day military CT units quietly and covertly consult with and train with Federal and local police SWAT units on tactics and equipment.  Their missions are different, but they can learn a lot from each other. 


 
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bravoss       2/4/2007 12:03:55 PM
But smitty wouldn't you agree that the guys that CAG or ST6  confront are usually much more dangerous than the typical SWAT target ? AK-47 is always an AK-47 but it depends on who is shooting it. No harm intended.

Any good books on CT Units. I meant on books with many units featured not one unit only books. thanks.

 
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GOP       2/4/2007 3:13:05 PM

Great point. While it's very true that SWAT has more operational experience than the Tier 1 CT units, that is very misleading. Serving a warrant for two bozo drug dealers is a completely different animal than clearing a terrorist compound in Afghanistan...the municipal SWAT team would be way out of it's league there. The quality of Tier 1 CT units just can't be compared to the municipal SWAT team. They are the best combat shooters in the world, spend hours in the kill house, train in HALO and helicopter insertion, train with other top notch units, etc. While local SWAT is taking down Joe Bozo's crackhouse, SEAL Team 6 is off in the fridgid waters off of Germany training with the SBS and Kampfschwimmers taking down an Oil Platform held by "terrorists" (other tier 1 operators). And while the municipal SRT team is serving the high risk warrant against jack doofus (the wifebeating drunk), CAG is off in England training with the SAS is CQB technique. SWAT does a great job at their mission tasks, but no one expects them to be able to do what a CAG/ST6/KSK/SAS/etc can do.


I don't mean to be rude at all, by the way.

Damn, son.  Not only do you dish on SWAT, but you had to do it THREE times.  That's cold.  In all seriousness, you reinforced the point I was trying to make, but I was mainly pointing out the difference between the missions and purpose of SWAT vs. CT.  I would take issue with the "Joe Bozo crackhouse" characterization.  Raids on drug houses are dangerous business, and in many cases a raid on a crackhouse in L.A. or a meth house in rural Missouri present some of the same threats as hitting a terrorist safe house in Pakistan or Colombia.  An AK-47 is an AK-47, whether it is fired in Compton or Karachi.  Sure, most raids end without a shot being fired, but you have to train for the worst case scenario.  Let me ask you this:  Which is harder, raiding a house understanding that you can only shoot the bad guy if he threatens to shoot you or someone else, or going into a house "weapons free", in which any armed or resisting subject can be shot on sight.  I bet even the Delta guys would admit that the first scenario would be a tough one to operate under and would require a lot of training and discipline. 

 

I still feel that the operational tempo point I made regarding experienced SWAT teams is an important one.  You can train all day long for weeks, but most operators will tell you that the best way to learn is to do it for real.  I believe that many of the top tier American SWAT units could be rather quickly trained up to a level where they could take down a terrorist held facility.  The hard part would be getting them trained up in the infiltration and exfiltration tactics (parachuting, scuba diving, and land navigation, among others) used by Delta, SAS, and ST6.  Were terrorists to attack a school or shopping mall in the United States it wouldn't be Delta, ST6, or even FBI HRT responding, but your local police SWAT team.  The situation becomes what is called in the police world an "active shooter" situation.  I've been meaning to write a post about this tactic and how it could apply to counter-terrorist situations, but have been putting it off. 

 

Here's an interesting sidenote:  Does anyone know what America's first dedicated counter terrorist unit was?  It wasn't SWAT or Seal Team 6, but LAPD SWAT.  SWAT was formed in the late 1960's by former LA Chief Daryl Gates to help the Department fight militant urban terrorist groups such as the Symbionese Liberation Army.  Most of the early members were military veterans and used military style tactics.  When Delta was formed in the mid to late 70's they consulted with civilian police SWAT units (not to mention the British SAS), who by that time had several years of experience in room clearing and CQB tactics.  To this day military CT units quietly and covertly consult with and train with Federal and local police SWAT units on tactics and equipment.  Their missions are different, but they can learn a lot from each other. 




I'm wasn't intending to diss SWAT, that could be my career goals if the whole military things falls through.
 
I certainly didn't mean to say that taking down a crackhouse isn't dangerous business, but I honestly believe that taking down a terrorist compound is
 
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smitty237       2/5/2007 11:50:12 PM

But smitty wouldn't you agree that the guys that CAG or ST6  confront are usually much more dangerous than the typical SWAT target ? AK-47 is always an AK-47 but it depends on who is shooting it. No harm intended.

Any good books on CT Units. I meant on books with many units featured not one unit only books. thanks.


The bad guys Delta (what does CAG stand for?) or ST6 might run into run the gambit from an untrained, uneducated  teenager armed with a rusty AK-47 to a battle hardened, well-trained Islamic militant.  The same goes for the SWAT cops to some extent.  Most of the time you are dealing with people that will surrender quickly, but every once in a while you will be facing a hard core white supremacist, drugged out paranoid meth head, or a veteran gang banger that is not afraid to die and has nothing to lose by shooting it out with the police.  Granted, the risks to CT operators are much greater when they go on actual ops, but SWAT cops carry guns and wear helmets and body armor for a reason.  It isn't just for show. 
One book I have in front of me right now is Special Forces by Lt. Col. George Forty.  It is put out by Airlife publishing.  They show a website of ; It provides a glossary of most of the world's special forces and CT units.  It was published in 2002, so it is still pretty up to date for the most part. 
 
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smitty237       2/6/2007 12:29:01 AM




Great point. While it's very true that SWAT has more operational experience than the Tier 1 CT units, that is very misleading. Serving a warrant for two bozo drug dealers is a completely different animal than clearing a terrorist compound in Afghanistan...the municipal SWAT team would be way out of it's league there. The quality of Tier 1 CT units just can't be compared to the municipal SWAT team. They are the best combat shooters in the world, spend hours in the kill house, train in HALO and helicopter insertion, train with other top notch units, etc. While local SWAT is taking down Joe Bozo's crackhouse, SEAL Team 6 is off in the fridgid waters off of Germany training with the SBS and Kampfschwimmers taking down an Oil Platform held by "terrorists" (other tier 1 operators). And while the municipal SRT team is serving the high risk warrant against jack doofus (the wifebeating drunk), CAG is off in England training with the SAS is CQB technique. SWAT does a great job at their mission tasks, but no one expects them to be able to do what a CAG/ST6/KSK/SAS/etc can do.




I don't mean to be rude at all, by the way.

Damn, son.  Not only do you dish on SWAT, but you had to do it THREE times.  That's cold.  In all seriousness, you reinforced the point I was trying to make, but I was mainly pointing out the difference between the missions and purpose of SWAT vs. CT.  I would take issue with the "Joe Bozo crackhouse" characterization.  Raids on drug houses are dangerous business, and in many cases a raid on a crackhouse in L.A. or a meth house in rural Missouri present some of the same threats as hitting a terrorist safe house in Pakistan or Colombia.  An AK-47 is an AK-47, whether it is fired in Compton or Karachi.  Sure, most raids end without a shot being fired, but you have to train for the worst case scenario.  Let me ask you this:  Which is harder, raiding a house understanding that you can only shoot the bad guy if he threatens to shoot you or someone else, or going into a house "weapons free", in which any armed or resisting subject can be shot on sight.  I bet even the Delta guys would admit that the first scenario would be a tough one to operate under and would require a lot of training and discipline. 



 



I still feel that the operational tempo point I made regarding experienced SWAT teams is an important one.  You can train all day long for weeks, but most operators will tell you that the best way to learn is to do it for real.  I believe that many of the top tier American SWAT units could be rather quickly trained up to a level where they could take down a terrorist held facility.  The hard part would be getting them trained up in the infiltration and exfiltration tactics (parachuting, scuba diving, and land navigation, among others) used by Delta, SAS, and ST6.  Were terrorists to attack a school or shopping mall in the United States it wouldn't be Delta, ST6, or even FBI HRT responding, but your local police SWAT team.  The situation becomes what is called in the police world an "active shooter" situation.  I've been meaning to write a post about this tactic and how it could apply to counter-terrorist situations, but have been putting it off. 



 



Here's an interesting sidenote:  Does anyone know what America's first dedicated counter terrorist unit was?  It wasn't SWAT or Seal Team 6, but LAPD SWAT.  SWAT was formed in the late 1960's by former LA Chief Daryl Gates to help the Department fight militant urban terrorist groups such as the Symbionese Liberation Army.  Most of the early members were military veterans and used military style tactics.  When Delta was formed in the mid to late 70's they consulted with civilian police SWAT units (not to mention the British SAS), who by that time had several years of experience in room clearing and CQB tactics.  To this day military CT units quietly and covertly consult with and train with Federal and local police SWAT units on tactics and equipment.  Their missions are different, but they can learn a lot from each other. 




 
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longrifle       2/6/2007 1:10:07 AM
"BTW:  the only thing I cringe at is doing a slow, methodical search through a roach infested trailer."

Hence my preference for laying out in the bushes and watching it all go down through the scope of my Remington Light Tactical Rifle.   

Entry team glory is overrated.   

I've been through enough roach infested trailers in the normal course of patrol duties to ask for a spot on the entry team.  
 
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longrifle       2/6/2007 1:22:59 AM
"Sure, there are lots of terrorists hiding in houses in Iraq, but also inside a lot of those houses are a lot of women, children, and unarmed men.  Going in guns blazing may do nothing more than create more terrorists, which may mean more work for the CT guys in the future."

Smitty,

Understood, and I agree up to a point; however, there is some controversy about infantry units overrelying on SWAT style entrys and CQB.

Here's a thread from the Small Wars Council:  council.smallwarsjournal.com/showthread.php?t=2089

I wrote the web address without the http://, since I can never get a link to work that way.
 
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GOP       2/6/2007 11:58:42 AM








Great point. While it's very true that SWAT has more operational experience than the Tier 1 CT units, that is very misleading. Serving a warrant for two bozo drug dealers is a completely different animal than clearing a terrorist compound in Afghanistan...the municipal SWAT team would be way out of it's league there. The quality of Tier 1 CT units just can't be compared to the municipal SWAT team. They are the best combat shooters in the world, spend hours in the kill house, train in HALO and helicopter insertion, train with other top notch units, etc. While local SWAT is taking down Joe Bozo's crackhouse, SEAL Team 6 is off in the fridgid waters off of Germany training with the SBS and Kampfschwimmers taking down an Oil Platform held by "terrorists" (other tier 1 operators). And while the municipal SRT team is serving the high risk warrant against jack doofus (the wifebeating drunk), CAG is off in England training with the SAS is CQB technique. SWAT does a great job at their mission tasks, but no one expects them to be able to do what a CAG/ST6/KSK/SAS/etc can do.






I don't mean to be rude at all, by the way.

Damn, son.  Not only do you dish on SWAT, but you had to do it THREE times.  That's cold.  In all seriousness, you reinforced the point I was trying to make, but I was mainly pointing out the difference between the missions and purpose of SWAT vs. CT.  I would take issue with the "Joe Bozo crackhouse" characterization.  Raids on drug houses are dangerous business, and in many cases a raid on a crackhouse in L.A. or a meth house in rural Missouri present some of the same threats as hitting a terrorist safe house in Pakistan or Colombia.  An AK-47 is an AK-47, whether it is fired in Compton or Karachi.  Sure, most raids end without a shot being fired, but you have to train for the worst case scenario.  Let me ask you this:  Which is harder, raiding a house understanding that you can only shoot the bad guy if he threatens to shoot you or someone else, or going into a house "weapons free", in which any armed or resisting subject can be shot on sight.  I bet even the Delta guys would admit that the first scenario would be a tough one to operate under and would require a lot of training and discipline. 





 





I still feel that the operational tempo point I made regarding experienced SWAT teams is an important one.  You can train all day long for weeks, but most operators will tell you that the best way to learn is to do it for real.  I believe that many of the top tier American SWAT units could be rather quickly trained up to a level where they could take down a terrorist held facility.  The hard part would be getting them trained up in the infiltration and exfiltration tactics (parachuting, scuba diving, and land navigation, among others) used by Delta, SAS, and ST6.  Were terrorists to attack a school or shopping mall in the United States it wouldn't be Delta, ST6, or even FBI HRT responding, but your local police SWAT team.  The situation becomes what is called in the police world an "active shooter" situation.  I've been meaning to write a post about this tactic and how it could apply to counter-terrorist situations, but have been putting it off. 





 





Here's an interesting sidenote:  Does anyone know what America's first dedicated counter terrorist unit was?  It wasn't SWAT or Seal Team 6, but LAPD SWAT.  SWAT was formed in the late 1960's by former LA Chief Daryl Gates to help the Department fight militant urban terrorist groups such as the Symbionese Liberation Army.  Most of the early members were military veterans and used military style tactics.  When Delta was formed in the mid to late 70's they consulted with civilian police SWAT units (not to mention the British SAS), who by that time had several years of experience in r
 
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