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Subject:
Difference between CT teams and SWAT
bravoss
1/31/2007 2:03:24 PM
whats the difference between swat teams such as for example LAPD SWAT or german SEK and counter terrorist units such as GSG-9 or FBI HOSTAGE RESCUE TEAM. i know the SWAT teams and SEK operate state wide and GSG-9 and HRT operate country wide. is there a difference in their roles,i mean there must be because if there wasnt there wouldnt be a need for both units. is it that the CT units engage high risk missions such and SWAT teams are more of a unit for arresting criminals and doing some minor risk hostage rescues ? if someone knows,please explain. and also is there a big difference between the training. i'm also a bit confused because GSG-9 is taking part in SWAT world contest and it is not the SWAT team. thank you.
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bravoss
2/2/2007 10:38:44 AM
thanks alot for you answers people. i thought almost the same as you told altough i didnt know that typical swat mission includes one hostage.
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bravoss
2/2/2007 10:53:30 AM
I think that the Tier 1 guys are in a league of their own, it's nothing against SWAT or any other unit. They are the best of the best, and evn the Tier 2 guys (like Army SF, the Teams, etc) can't really touch them.
GOP what did you think by that, i didn't get it totally, my bad? That some SWAT teams are actually better trained than military units engaged in CQB like CAG ?
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bravoss
2/2/2007 12:51:26 PM
And why is gsg-9 taking part in SWAT World Challenge ? In 2005 they won 8 of 8 events and in 2006 i think they won 4 of 8, so last 2 years gsg-9 won the SWAT World Challenge. Wouldn't it be more appropriate if the German SEK was invited for the competition?
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GOP
2/2/2007 3:10:05 PM
I think that the Tier 1
guys are in a league of their own, it's nothing against SWAT or any
other unit. They are the best of the best, and evn the Tier 2 guys
(like Army SF, the Teams, etc) can't really touch them.
GOP what did you think by that, i didn't get it totally, my bad? That some SWAT teams are actually better trained than military units engaged in CQB like CAG ?
No, that the Tier 1 units (like CAG/ST6/GSG-9/etc) are by far the best at what they do (namely CQB).
As far as GSG-9, they are technically a LE unit, whereas the KSK is now the militaries SMU/Tier 1 unit. Of course, the GSG-9 has worked inside of Afghanistan I believe, so there are exceptions.
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GOP
2/2/2007 3:18:36 PM
So what is this "probe" entry thing? I have seen it on the TV shows listed above, but basically it kind of looks like they open a door quitely, and sneak in there before Joe Bob see's them or hears them...and they kind of point their guns at Joe Bob and say "get down" and that's it. Definitely anti-climatic for the show! I want to see them go in their like ST6/CAG, kick down doors, throw flash bangs, hit Joe Bob with their rifle butts, etc...but they just kind of knock on the door and tell Joe Bob to "get on the floor buddy"
Bear in mind that while "violence of action" is a watchword for both LE and military DA stuff, for law enforcement there's a much higher risk of "violence of action" being interpreted somewhere as "excessive force," etc.
Also, SWAT actions most places will differ from how military special operations do things right from the get go -- most LE agencies don't do explosive entry. You'll notice on Dallas SWAT and such that those guys are really, really good at mechanical breaching, door pulls, etc. For a military special operations unit, a lot of the entries those guys do with pull hooks, etc., would be done with explosives.
Yeah, I've noticed that about all of the door pulls, etc. That is where I don't get their mission planning. For example, all those ops are done during the day, with a extremely loud truck roaring through the Ghetto (where someone could call the suspects in advance), they do the whole door pull thing (if it has a cage), then they go and hit the door with a pole, then finally they go inside the house.
If it were me, I would do all of the ops at night, have a non-descript vehicle take me and my team close to the target, then stealthily go on foot to the target. I wouldn't breach the cage, I'd climb over it with my team, then go kick in the door and get the suspects. This could be way off base, but it's much more stealthy and suprising, the whole violence of action thing would be just a great (kick in a door, throw flashbangs, yell get down, etc) it would be very confusing the the suspect...especially if he was asleep.
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Zerbrechen
Tactics
2/2/2007 4:16:29 PM
Remember, they're not going to show you everything in the TV show. Bad guys watch TV too. When I was a correctional officer, one of the most popular shows was COPS. That's all I'm gonna say about tactics.
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smitty237
2/3/2007 8:57:05 PM
The vast majority of operations that SWAT teams conduct are high risk warrant services. This is especially true for big city SWAT teams. Some large cities have SWAT teams that do nothing but serve search warrants (Kansas City, MO is an example with its Street Narcotics Unit Tactical Teams). Such teams are usually attached to the department's narcotics units. Other departments, especially small ones, use its regular SWAT team to handle high risk warrants. In cities with a considerable amount of drug activity these units stay quite busy, in some cases serving several search warrants in one day. I would dare say that some of these teams have more operational experience than many of the military or federal CT teams.
I realize it is tempting to assume that the federal and military CT teams would automatically be superior to municipal and state SWAT teams, but the missions of SWAT and counter terrorism teams are very different. The primary mission of SWAT teams is the preservation of life, including that of the suspect, if possible. In fact, studies have shown that the chances of everyone surviving a critical incident goes up when SWAT shows up on the scene. On barricade or hostage operations SWAT will show up, set up a perimeter, and then wait. Crisis negotiators will try to establish contact with the bad guy and get him or her to surrender. If no contact is established after an extended length or time or there are indications that the bad guy is going to hurt the hostage or others, then SWAT will go in. Still, SWAT will attempt to take the suspect into custody without killing or injuring him if possible. This requires a tremendous amount of training and restraint.
The most well known Federal CT team is FBI's Hostage Rescue Team, but I'll bet that most people don't know that most FBI field offices have their own SWAT teams. These teams perform the same missions that local and state SWAT teams perform, and in many cases are called in to support local and SWAT teams in cases in which the Federal government shares jurisdiction. Such cases include bank robbery barricaded situations and hostage situations in which the suspect has crossed state lines. FBI SWAT teams will also be used to serve high risk Federal warrants, although other Federal SWAT teams, such as those belonging to DEA, US Marshalls, or BATF may also be used.
GSG-9 is part of Germany's Border Guard Police, which is part of the German national police, and not the military. They are probably more equivalent to America's FBI HRT than they are to the Army Delta or Navy Seal Team 6, and have to operate within strict guidelines. In fact, the German Army formed KSK when it realized that it did not have a military hostage rescue or counter terrorist team capable of operating outside Germany's borders.
I would concede that your average Delta or FBI HRT operator is probably better trained and conditioned than your average municipal or state SWAT operator, but I would argue that they are two different breeds of cat. Most SWAT teams are more than adequate for what they are trained to do, and if you had a SWAT team and Delta perform identical search warrants you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between the two. However, if you need to insert a team by helicopter into a foreign country to kill a terrorist bomb maker and then evacuate the team across international borders, then you'd better send Delta.
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GOP
2/4/2007 1:02:50 AM
The vast majority of operations that SWAT teams conduct are high risk warrant services. This is especially true for big city SWAT teams. Some large cities have SWAT teams that do nothing but serve search warrants (Kansas City, MO is an example with its Street Narcotics Unit Tactical Teams). Such teams are usually attached to the department's narcotics units. Other departments, especially small ones, use its regular SWAT team to handle high risk warrants. In cities with a considerable amount of drug activity these units stay quite busy, in some cases serving several search warrants in one day. I would dare say that some of these teams have more operational experience than many of the military or federal CT teams.
I realize it is tempting to assume that the federal and military CT teams would automatically be superior to municipal and state SWAT teams, but the missions of SWAT and counter terrorism teams are very different. The primary mission of SWAT teams is the preservation of life, including that of the suspect, if possible. In fact, studies have shown that the chances of everyone surviving a critical incident goes up when SWAT shows up on the scene. On barricade or hostage operations SWAT will show up, set up a perimeter, and then wait. Crisis negotiators will try to establish contact with the bad guy and get him or her to surrender. If no contact is established after an extended length or time or there are indications that the bad guy is going to hurt the hostage or others, then SWAT will go in. Still, SWAT will attempt to take the suspect into custody without killing or injuring him if possible. This requires a tremendous amount of training and restraint.
The most well known Federal CT team is FBI's Hostage Rescue Team, but I'll bet that most people don't know that most FBI field offices have their own SWAT teams. These teams perform the same missions that local and state SWAT teams perform, and in many cases are called in to support local and SWAT teams in cases in which the Federal government shares jurisdiction. Such cases include bank robbery barricaded situations and hostage situations in which the suspect has crossed state lines. FBI SWAT teams will also be used to serve high risk Federal warrants, although other Federal SWAT teams, such as those belonging to DEA, US Marshalls, or BATF may also be used.
GSG-9 is part of Germany's Border Guard Police, which is part of the German national police, and not the military. They are probably more equivalent to America's FBI HRT than they are to the Army Delta or Navy Seal Team 6, and have to operate within strict guidelines. In fact, the German Army formed KSK when it realized that it did not have a military hostage rescue or counter terrorist team capable of operating outside Germany's borders.
I would concede that your average Delta or FBI HRT operator is probably better trained and conditioned than your average municipal or state SWAT operator, but I would argue that they are two different breeds of cat. Most SWAT teams are more than adequate for what they are trained to do, and if you had a SWAT team and Delta perform identical search warrants you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between the two. However, if you need to insert a team by helicopter into a foreign country to kill a terrorist bomb maker and then evacuate the team across international borders, then you'd better send Delta.
Great point. While it's very true that SWAT has more operational experience than the Tier 1 CT units, that is very misleading. Serving a warrant for two bozo drug dealers is a completely different animal than clearing a terrorist compound in Afghanistan...the municipal SWAT team would be way out of it's league there. The quality of Tier 1 CT units just can't be compared to the municipal SWAT team. They are the best combat shooters in the world, spend hours in the kill house, train in HALO and helicopter insertion, train with other top notch units, etc. While local SWAT is taking down Joe Bozo's crackhouse, SEAL Team 6 is off in the fridgid waters off of Germany training with the SBS and Kampfschwimmers taking down an Oil Platform held by "terrorists" (other tier 1 operators). And while the municipal SRT team is serving the high risk warrant against jack doofus (the wifebeating drunk), CAG
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GOP
2/4/2007 1:02:50 AM
The vast majority of operations that SWAT teams conduct are high risk warrant services. This is especially true for big city SWAT teams. Some large cities have SWAT teams that do nothing but serve search warrants (Kansas City, MO is an example with its Street Narcotics Unit Tactical Teams). Such teams are usually attached to the department's narcotics units. Other departments, especially small ones, use its regular SWAT team to handle high risk warrants. In cities with a considerable amount of drug activity these units stay quite busy, in some cases serving several search warrants in one day. I would dare say that some of these teams have more operational experience than many of the military or federal CT teams.
I realize it is tempting to assume that the federal and military CT teams would automatically be superior to municipal and state SWAT teams, but the missions of SWAT and counter terrorism teams are very different. The primary mission of SWAT teams is the preservation of life, including that of the suspect, if possible. In fact, studies have shown that the chances of everyone surviving a critical incident goes up when SWAT shows up on the scene. On barricade or hostage operations SWAT will show up, set up a perimeter, and then wait. Crisis negotiators will try to establish contact with the bad guy and get him or her to surrender. If no contact is established after an extended length or time or there are indications that the bad guy is going to hurt the hostage or others, then SWAT will go in. Still, SWAT will attempt to take the suspect into custody without killing or injuring him if possible. This requires a tremendous amount of training and restraint.
The most well known Federal CT team is FBI's Hostage Rescue Team, but I'll bet that most people don't know that most FBI field offices have their own SWAT teams. These teams perform the same missions that local and state SWAT teams perform, and in many cases are called in to support local and SWAT teams in cases in which the Federal government shares jurisdiction. Such cases include bank robbery barricaded situations and hostage situations in which the suspect has crossed state lines. FBI SWAT teams will also be used to serve high risk Federal warrants, although other Federal SWAT teams, such as those belonging to DEA, US Marshalls, or BATF may also be used.
GSG-9 is part of Germany's Border Guard Police, which is part of the German national police, and not the military. They are probably more equivalent to America's FBI HRT than they are to the Army Delta or Navy Seal Team 6, and have to operate within strict guidelines. In fact, the German Army formed KSK when it realized that it did not have a military hostage rescue or counter terrorist team capable of operating outside Germany's borders.
I would concede that your average Delta or FBI HRT operator is probably better trained and conditioned than your average municipal or state SWAT operator, but I would argue that they are two different breeds of cat. Most SWAT teams are more than adequate for what they are trained to do, and if you had a SWAT team and Delta perform identical search warrants you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between the two. However, if you need to insert a team by helicopter into a foreign country to kill a terrorist bomb maker and then evacuate the team across international borders, then you'd better send Delta.
Great point. While it's very true that SWAT has more operational experience than the Tier 1 CT units, that is very misleading. Serving a warrant for two bozo drug dealers is a completely different animal than clearing a terrorist compound in Afghanistan...the municipal SWAT team would be way out of it's league there. The quality of Tier 1 CT units just can't be compared to the municipal SWAT team. They are the best combat shooters in the world, spend hours in the kill house, train in HALO and helicopter insertion, train with other top notch units, etc. While local SWAT is taking down Joe Bozo's crackhouse, SEAL Team 6 is off in the fridgid waters off of Germany training with the SBS and Kampfschwimmers taking down an Oil Platform held by "terrorists" (other tier 1 operators). And while the municipal SRT team is serving the high risk warrant against jack doofus (the wifebeating drunk), CAG
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GOP
2/4/2007 1:02:55 AM
The vast majority of operations that SWAT teams conduct are high risk warrant services. This is especially true for big city SWAT teams. Some large cities have SWAT teams that do nothing but serve search warrants (Kansas City, MO is an example with its Street Narcotics Unit Tactical Teams). Such teams are usually attached to the department's narcotics units. Other departments, especially small ones, use its regular SWAT team to handle high risk warrants. In cities with a considerable amount of drug activity these units stay quite busy, in some cases serving several search warrants in one day. I would dare say that some of these teams have more operational experience than many of the military or federal CT teams.
I realize it is tempting to assume that the federal and military CT teams would automatically be superior to municipal and state SWAT teams, but the missions of SWAT and counter terrorism teams are very different. The primary mission of SWAT teams is the preservation of life, including that of the suspect, if possible. In fact, studies have shown that the chances of everyone surviving a critical incident goes up when SWAT shows up on the scene. On barricade or hostage operations SWAT will show up, set up a perimeter, and then wait. Crisis negotiators will try to establish contact with the bad guy and get him or her to surrender. If no contact is established after an extended length or time or there are indications that the bad guy is going to hurt the hostage or others, then SWAT will go in. Still, SWAT will attempt to take the suspect into custody without killing or injuring him if possible. This requires a tremendous amount of training and restraint.
The most well known Federal CT team is FBI's Hostage Rescue Team, but I'll bet that most people don't know that most FBI field offices have their own SWAT teams. These teams perform the same missions that local and state SWAT teams perform, and in many cases are called in to support local and SWAT teams in cases in which the Federal government shares jurisdiction. Such cases include bank robbery barricaded situations and hostage situations in which the suspect has crossed state lines. FBI SWAT teams will also be used to serve high risk Federal warrants, although other Federal SWAT teams, such as those belonging to DEA, US Marshalls, or BATF may also be used.
GSG-9 is part of Germany's Border Guard Police, which is part of the German national police, and not the military. They are probably more equivalent to America's FBI HRT than they are to the Army Delta or Navy Seal Team 6, and have to operate within strict guidelines. In fact, the German Army formed KSK when it realized that it did not have a military hostage rescue or counter terrorist team capable of operating outside Germany's borders.
I would concede that your average Delta or FBI HRT operator is probably better trained and conditioned than your average municipal or state SWAT operator, but I would argue that they are two different breeds of cat. Most SWAT teams are more than adequate for what they are trained to do, and if you had a SWAT team and Delta perform identical search warrants you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between the two. However, if you need to insert a team by helicopter into a foreign country to kill a terrorist bomb maker and then evacuate the team across international borders, then you'd better send Delta.
Great point. While it's very true that SWAT has more operational experience than the Tier 1 CT units, that is very misleading. Serving a warrant for two bozo drug dealers is a completely different animal than clearing a terrorist compound in Afghanistan...the municipal SWAT team would be way out of it's league there. The quality of Tier 1 CT units just can't be compared to the municipal SWAT team. They are the best combat shooters in the world, spend hours in the kill house, train in HALO and helicopter insertion, train with other top notch units, etc. While local SWAT is taking down Joe Bozo's crackhouse, SEAL Team 6 is off in the fridgid waters off of Germany training with the SBS and Kampfschwimmers taking down an Oil Platform held by "terrorists" (other tier 1 operators). And while the municipal SRT team is serving the high risk warrant against jack doofus (the wifebeating drunk), CAG
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