USMC perform atsame level or higher than comparable SOCOM units proven in head2head comparison: DET1

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Subject: USMC perform atsame level or higher than comparable SOCOM units proven in head2head comparison: DET1
SCCOMarine 12/21/2006 7:01:59 PM

Marine Corps Special Operations Command Detachment 1 (MCSOCom Det 1) was created with a charter to examine the issue of a permanent Marine Corps force contribution to the U.S. Special Operations Command (USSOCom). Formally referred to as a "proof of concept," Det 1 completed a successful deployment under the operational control of USSOCom, demonstrated that Marines are fully capable of operating at the level of our Nation's other special operations forces (SOF), and paved the way for the creation of a Marine component to the USSOCom. As we prepare to case the colors of Det 1 and stand up U.S. Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command (MarSOC), it is appropriate to review and discuss what made Det 1 successful and any potential pitfalls to avoid as we move forward. Although the idea of a Marine Corps force contribution to USSOCom had been discussed since USSOCom's inception in the mid-1980s, it came to fruition only with the renewed emphasis placed on special operations in the wake of the attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon in 2001. That fall, the Secretary of Defense (SecDef) directed the Commandant of the Marine Corps (CMC), Gen James L. Jones, and Commander, USSOCom (CdrUSSOCom), Gen Charles Holland, USAF, to explore ways for the Marine Corps and USSOCom to work more closely together in what came to be known as the global war on terrorism (GWOT). The subject of assigning a Marine Corps unit-a force contribution-to USSOCom was raised early in the discussions and took on added significance in many Marine leaders' eyes when two of the Marine Corps' "crown jewels"-the 15th and 26th Marine Expeditionary Units (Special Operations Capable) (MEU(SOC)s)-were forced to sit on the sidelines during the early stages of Operation ENDURING FREEDOM (OEF) in Afghanistan. Resistance from SOF commanders already on the ground and indifference from the Navy chain of command under which they were operating left the 15th MEU(SOC) languishing offshore for over a month. Even when these and later Marine units did make it ashore they were most often employed piece-meal in supporting roles to provide capabilities that SOF were deficient in or lacked altogether. In October 2002 Gen Jones, in consultation with senior USSOCom decisionmakers, sought to answer the force contribution question and increase Marine Corps involvement in the GWOT by approving an initiative to establish a purpose-built Marine unit for employment by USSOCom. In a message to senior leaders in the Marine Corps, the CMC directed them to: . . . develop a plan to provide forces to the Special Operations Command on a permanent basis in order to cement the relationship of our two organizations at the institutional level and provide our nation with an expanded special operations capability.1 In response to the CMC's message, the Deputy Commandant for Plans, Policies, and Operations (DC PP&O) established a working group tasked with creating a rough table of organization (T/O) and table of equipment (T/E). The T/O they developed included only 86 line numbers divided among 4 sections-a 30-man reconnaissance element, a 29-man intelligence element, a 7-man fires element, and a lean headquarters. The intelligence element was further broken down into a 9-man radio reconnaissance team (RRT), a 6-man human intelligence (HumInt) exploitation team (HET), and a 12-man all-source fusion team. (See Figure 1.) The final administrative requirement was met in February 2003 when DC PP&O signed a memorandum of agreement (MOA) with the Deputy Commander, USSOCom. The MOA was jointly drafted by the Marine Corps and USSOCom and established the parameters for the proof of concept, including the mission, command relationships, and resourcing for Det 1. A ceremony held aboard Camp Pendleton on 19 June 2003 marked the official activation of Det 1. Execution of the detachment mission training plan began in earnest the week following the activation and culminated with a 3week capstone exercise at the Nevada Test Site and Indian Springs Auxiliary Air Field, NV in December 2003. After participating in an Navy special warfare (NSW) certification exercise and conducting additional sustainment training, Det 1 deployed to Baghdad for Operation IRAQI FREEDOM II (OIF II) in April 2004, just over 9 months after its activation. While operating as part of an NSW task group (NSWTG), Det 1 executed a number of direct action, coalition support, and battlefield shaping missions under the regional combined joint special operations task force (CJSOTF). By all accounts, Det 1 excelled and earned a reputation for professionalism, competence, and being "user friendly." A study conducted by the Joint Special Operations University (JSOU) found: The operational effectiveness of the MCSOCOM Det was high. . . . The trial deployment demonstrated the MCSOCOM Det could effectively conduct Direct Action (DA) and Special Reconnaissance (SR) in conjunction with a Naval Special Warfare Task Group

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SCCOMarine 12/29/2006 6:01:27 AM

Yeah Hs, alot of this is typical USMC brain-washed "Oorah Oorah!!! Devil Dogs!!! Get Some!!! KILL KILL KILL!!! USMC!!!" garbage, but some of his points are pretty good. I just don't buy the fact that FR is better at DA than the Teams or is equal to Tier 1 units. It is true that Det 1 DAP's are extremely good, but Det 1 is made up of the best FR guys in the USMC.

But hey, we are all entitled to our opinion and if he can conclusively prove his point, then I might change my opinion. The funny thing is that alot of SEALs are helping develope MARSOC and are monitoring Det 1 for SOCOM and will give an evaluation on there performance, so SOCOM must believe differently than SCCOMMARINE

For clarification the SEALs are not helpling to develop MARSOC, the Det was formed to evaluate(grade) the MC ability to conduct SO. The MC & NSW are sister services and constant training & r&d partners. Comm Gen thought it natural to pair the Det with NSW and let them evaluate them. They were under the command of NSW-1, NSW and the Det were scheduled to due 3mths of interoperabilty(feeling out) training before the deployment. Due to conflicting sched's that was cut to 3wks. The SEALs didn't train, advise, or assist the Marines in any way. In fact they hindered the Marines eval by splitting them among their Task Groups once they saw how the Marines could elevate each TG.

The MC had always maintain that its units could perform at the same level or higher than its SOCOM counter parts. Keeping in mind that the MCs stance was partly based off the fact that the whole MC is within the Jurisdiction of the JSOC (created by a Marine Gen PX Kelley) (the SMUs Delta & DevGru fall under JSOC not SOCOM) and therefore had never been out of the SO loop. The Det was a beefed up MSPF w/out the security ele. The Det's original intention was not to add forces to SOCOM, but to remain independent and gain funding and recognition for what the Marines bring to CT.

Quotes about the Det:

COL Repass, the CJSOTF-*AP Commander, “MCSOCOM Det should operate as an independent unit for me….”
CDR Wilson, NSWTG-AP Commander, “Raider’s (MCSOCOM) assault element is the equal of any of my SEAL task units.”

HEY GOP! I grab 2 qoutes from the report. The 1st guy was trying to get the Det transfered over to the ARSOC in Iraq to support his men. I want you to pay Special attention to that last one, CDR Wilson...Now of course he's not going to admit that the Det is BETTER than his SEALs. SEALs are to self absorbed to let the wind out their own bag. But as I've so painstakingly quoted out on so many occasions the report does it for him. (pls refer to previous threads). I told B4 but I'll tell you again the report is entitled "MCSOCOM Proof of Concept Deployment Evaluation Report". Its been Declassified so you can find it on the internet.

And another thing is the DA element of the Det was not made up of the best FR Marines in the Corps. It was hastily thrown together from the FR Marines available, and not all members of the DA were Force some were NCO's from the Batts. One the SARCs had been out of service 2yrs and they called him back.

Evaluation Team

Study Advocate BG Paulette Risher (SOCOM SOKF/JSOU Pres)

Team Leader

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SCCOMarine 12/29/2006 6:32:58 AM

While I do think that the thread starter was being way too biased on the subject, I don't think that most Marines are as "creative as cinder blocks". Is it just me, or do you hate every other branch in the US military outside of the Army

Nah, I have nothing but respect for the AFSOC guys I've worked with.

More practically, if you look back, I've not really been critical of MARSOC in the past. At least not until some mouthbreather who either is a marine or really, really wants to be had to go and start a thread about the usual "USMC Uber Alles" drivel. At that point, I just felt someone needed some body part busted.

Realistically, I do think MARSOC will do a very good job, if and only if the non-visionary conventionalists in the senior ranks of the USMC keep their noses out and let it become a special operations force. Could go either way, but my guess is it will go well while the way is on, and fall apart once peace breaks out (when the military will generally rediscover its fetish for haircuts, boots you can shine, uniforms you can starch and the rest of that silliness).

horsesoldier gives an accurate depiction of "the new guys" on sites like this, but I'm not Braddock and I'm not a wanna be. I served 5&1/2yrs in the Marine Coprs in a Unit called Small Craft Co. I've been trained and have deployed around the world during and b4 the war. I don't think I'm a "Bad Ass, KILL, KILL, KILL" and I don't think every individual Marine in the Corps can kick everybody elses ass, although the mentality is there. But what you need to understand about the Marine Corps, as a whole(175,000) and on a small unit level(4 man Fire Team), is that it is a Corps of Fighting Men (only 4% female).

If some PUSS from your neighborhood leaves to join the Marines and he makes it thru boot camp and SOI to his new unit as say, a mail clerk, does that make him an automatic hard ass? F**K no! But this is what it does say about him, even as a PUSS mail clerk: At the minimum

*He's Physically fit (to the min. level of many SOCOM units) 225 in most units go to (Marine PFT chart)

*He can accurately fire a weapon out to 500yrds. And not that gay sh*t they do in the army, a 3-4 day fam. fire where their just shooting aimlessly at targets starting at the 50yd and ending at the 300. Shooting in the Marine Corps is a "sweet science" like the Marksmanship Instructors say we start at the 200. You spend the first week alone 5am-5pm daily, lying motionless not firing a shot, perfecting proper form & technique(bone support, muscle relaxation, steady trigger squeeze) no matter how hot or cold it is. The only chance you get to move is to another firing position. The next week we fire from the exact moment the sun comes up, until 5or6pm.

*Basic Infantry trained(patrolling, off/def manuvers, raid tech/raid def, ambuh/coun.amb, fighting positions). The amount of combat training recieved by a basic support Marine is 2wks longer than an US Army Infantryman(9wks BC, 5wks AIT) Supp. Mar.(13wks BC, 3wks MCT) and the Supp. Marines don't even get weekends off.

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SCCOMarine 12/29/2006 6:59:44 AM

"We spent the last decade of the 20th century
untangling ourselves from serving as the Navy's gate guards and
orderlies; without a credible force operating as a peer with
other-Service SOF, we will likely assume a similar role for
USSOCom-guarding forward operating bases, providing logistics and intel
support, and otherwise freeing a SOF warrior to wage the "real fight."
While that may be acceptable to some Marines (and hopefully to at least
a few civilians considering becoming Marines), we will lose any claim
to the "first to fight" and "every Marine a rifleman" ethos that have
defined our Corps to this point."

I admire the "every Marine a rifleman" ethos, but the Marine Corps aquired the "first to fight" reputation back in the late 19th/early 20th Century when you couldn't project an expeditionary force someplace if you couldn't get them there by sea. They've been out stormtroopered in the expeditionary role on several occasons by the Army since the airplane and the parachute became a reality. They know this too, that's one reason they're trying to transform themselves into a quasi air assault force. Witness the importance they place on the Osprey and terms like "Operational Manuever from the Sea."

The 9th Marine Expeditionary Brigade arrived in Da Nang, SVN, on March 8, 1965, amid the typical Marine Corps propaganda of "first to fight." Somebody forgot to inform them that Army Special Forces Captain Roger Hugh Donlon had been awarded the Medal of Honor for actions on July 6, 1964.....also in SVN. They were a little late to claim a "first."

Tun Tavern legends not withstanding, the Marine Corps wasn't exactly first to fight for America during most of her frontier and colonial era either.

Cute Quote! Too bad you don't understand the context in which it was written, Marine Corps History, or OMFTS. Don't worry though I'll explain it to you all in good time, which I don't have right now but stay tuned. Your like my youngMarines I used to have. Your a Good litttle Boot! You did your MC history homework, you studied what we're going to do tomorrow, and you even recited your quote for the day. Now eat your HOORAH Cookies and drink your Super Boot Juice and keep quiet, I'll explain it all to you later.

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longrifle 12/29/2006 11:57:05 AM

Oh, but sea daddy, I can't wait that long!

Tell me now, tell me now!

I'll be a good little boot from now on.....promise!

Hooah.....

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Horsesoldier 12/29/2006 12:12:24 PM

>>> If some PUSS from your neighborhood leaves to join the Marines and he makes it thru boot camp and SOI to his new unit as say, a mail clerk, does that make him an automatic hard ass? F**K no! But this is what it does say about him, even as a PUSS mail clerk: At the minimum

*He's Physically fit (to the min. level of many SOCOM units) 225 in most units go to (Marine PFT chart)<<<

Oooooooh. He's done PT. Wow.

>>>*He can accurately fire a weapon out to 500yrds. And not that gay sh*t they do in the army, a 3-4 day fam. fire where their just shooting aimlessly at targets starting at the 50yd and ending at the 300. Shooting in the Marine Corps is a "sweet science" like the Marksmanship Instructors say we start at the 200. You spend the first week alone 5am-5pm daily, lying motionless not firing a shot, perfecting proper form & technique(bone support, muscle relaxation, steady trigger squeeze) no matter how hot or cold it is. The only chance you get to move is to another firing position. The next week we fire from the exact moment the sun comes up, until 5or6pm.<<<<

That 500 yard stupidity means nothing except hours of your life you'll never get back. Combat shooting doesn't take place at 3-500, so mistraining recruits on pointless skills is not exactly a bragging point in my opinion. If every hour wasted past 300 were spent on real combat marksmanship training the USMC would be far, far better served. But that would require those arch-traditionalists and converservative running the show to innovate, and, as I've noted, that's not their forte.

>>>*Basic Infantry trained(patrolling, off/def manuvers, raid tech/raid def, ambuh/coun.amb, fighting positions). The amount of combat training recieved by a basic support Marine is 2wks longer than an US Army Infantryman(9wks BC, 5wks AIT) Supp. Mar.(13wks BC, 3wks MCT) and the Supp. Marines don't even get weekends off.<<<

And then they get to float and have skills atrophy while army personnel continue to refine and hone their skill set. Again, bragging in a yawn worthy manner does very little to impress me. The various marines I've worked with have been proficient, but not in any way notably superior to their army counterparts.

>>>*He can strap an 70lb pack on his back and hump 20mi.<<<<

Oh, again, he's done PT. Wow.

>>>>*Day/Night land nav qual'd.

*Field trained.

*Fam trained in MOUT & EMP(confined space shooting).<<<<

Right. The USMC is the only group that does land nav training, or field training. Fam fire combat marksmanship training is not nearly the same thing as all that time wasted learning to shoot NRA positions at 500 meters (great if the Zulus are charging you with spears, retarded otherwise).

Etc.

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GOP 12/29/2006 12:34:23 PM

Quotes about the Det:

COL Repass, the CJSOTF-*AP Commander, “MCSOCOM Det should operate as an independent unit for me….”
CDR Wilson, NSWTG-AP Commander, “Raider’s (MCSOCOM) assault element is the equal of any of my SEAL task units.”

Evaluation Team

Study Advocate &

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GOP 12/29/2006 12:53:19 PM

Also, a regular SEAL Team should not be as profecient as DET 1's DAP, as a regular SEAL Team does not specialize. For example,

how does DET 1's DAP swim? My guess: a regular SEAL Team could swim circles around the DAP.

how does DET 1's DAP perform on VBSS and OPLAT ops compared to the Teams? My guess: a regular SEAL Team is much better at these ops since this is sort of their specialization. Add water to the mix, and a regular SEAL Team has the advantage...don't believe me though, believe SOCOM.

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joe6pack Wow 12/29/2006 3:01:16 PM

Its been ages since there was a good Army / Marine showdown on these boards. Go Army! Beat Navy!

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SCCOMarine 12/29/2006 4:39:35 PM

"That 500 yard stupidity means nothing except hours of your life you'll never get back. Combat shooting doesn't take place at 3-500, so mistraining recruits on pointless skills is not exactly a bragging point in my opinion. If every hour wasted past 300 were spent on real combat marksmanship training the USMC would be far, far better served. But that would require those arch-traditionalists and converservative running the show to innovate, and, as I've noted, that's not their forte."

What are you a F**KING Idiot. Do you even Know anything about infantry tactics you must be some little *ss Kid, some wannabe that you keep talking about.

**During the first Fallujah engagement, in April 2004, when the Provisional Gov't requested Marine ceasefire for negotiations that the insurgents were requesting. The first thing the insurgents requested was that the Marines withdrawl the "hundreds of snipers" imbedded in the city. What they didn't know was that although there were around 1,000 Marines operating in the city, only 25-30 snipers were in the city at any given time. What a study later showed was that it was infantry Marines making kills at over 800 yrds and headshots at 400 & 500.

If your an infanry squad in a concealed position (no matter what the terrain) and got the bead on the enemy at 500yrds why the F**k would leave a concealed position to engage when you have the ability to make kills at that distance. Where they can't effectively engage you or even pinpoint your location.

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SCCOMarine 12/29/2006 5:05:10 PM

"I apologize then. I have read that several SEALs were involved in assisting in the developement MARSOC, I guess I was wrong.

And no, Cmdr. Wilson and the report does not say anything about FR/DAP's being better than SEALs at DA. You are splitting hairs here. There is no evidence to prove who is better, because each individual unit within SOCOM is going to be better at certain tasks based on experience, leadership, and deployment cycle.

There hasn't been anything printed about SEALs helping to develop MARSOC the only part the SEALs were involved in was in the evaluation of the Det.

Take back to OUR original discussion. I didn't say FR is better than the SEALs because I know very well about the various roles different units play. What our discussion was about was me explaining to you the reports findings. The reports purpose was to define what capabilities the Marine bring to SO/CT. What the report says is that, among other things, the Dets DA capability is superior to any unit outside the SMU's.

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