Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Commandos and Special Operations Discussion Board
   Return to Topic Page
Subject: USMC perform atsame level or higher than comparable SOCOM units proven in head2head comparison: DET1
SCCOMarine    12/21/2006 7:01:59 PM
Marine Corps Special Operations Command Detachment 1 (MCSOCom Det 1) was created with a charter to examine the issue of a permanent Marine Corps force contribution to the U.S. Special Operations Command (USSOCom). Formally referred to as a "proof of concept," Det 1 completed a successful deployment under the operational control of USSOCom, demonstrated that Marines are fully capable of operating at the level of our Nation's other special operations forces (SOF), and paved the way for the creation of a Marine component to the USSOCom. As we prepare to case the colors of Det 1 and stand up U.S. Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command (MarSOC), it is appropriate to review and discuss what made Det 1 successful and any potential pitfalls to avoid as we move forward. Although the idea of a Marine Corps force contribution to USSOCom had been discussed since USSOCom's inception in the mid-1980s, it came to fruition only with the renewed emphasis placed on special operations in the wake of the attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon in 2001. That fall, the Secretary of Defense (SecDef) directed the Commandant of the Marine Corps (CMC), Gen James L. Jones, and Commander, USSOCom (CdrUSSOCom), Gen Charles Holland, USAF, to explore ways for the Marine Corps and USSOCom to work more closely together in what came to be known as the global war on terrorism (GWOT). The subject of assigning a Marine Corps unit-a force contribution-to USSOCom was raised early in the discussions and took on added significance in many Marine leaders' eyes when two of the Marine Corps' "crown jewels"-the 15th and 26th Marine Expeditionary Units (Special Operations Capable) (MEU(SOC)s)-were forced to sit on the sidelines during the early stages of Operation ENDURING FREEDOM (OEF) in Afghanistan. Resistance from SOF commanders already on the ground and indifference from the Navy chain of command under which they were operating left the 15th MEU(SOC) languishing offshore for over a month. Even when these and later Marine units did make it ashore they were most often employed piece-meal in supporting roles to provide capabilities that SOF were deficient in or lacked altogether. In October 2002 Gen Jones, in consultation with senior USSOCom decisionmakers, sought to answer the force contribution question and increase Marine Corps involvement in the GWOT by approving an initiative to establish a purpose-built Marine unit for employment by USSOCom. In a message to senior leaders in the Marine Corps, the CMC directed them to: . . . develop a plan to provide forces to the Special Operations Command on a permanent basis in order to cement the relationship of our two organizations at the institutional level and provide our nation with an expanded special operations capability.1 In response to the CMC's message, the Deputy Commandant for Plans, Policies, and Operations (DC PP&O) established a working group tasked with creating a rough table of organization (T/O) and table of equipment (T/E). The T/O they developed included only 86 line numbers divided among 4 sections-a 30-man reconnaissance element, a 29-man intelligence element, a 7-man fires element, and a lean headquarters. The intelligence element was further broken down into a 9-man radio reconnaissance team (RRT), a 6-man human intelligence (HumInt) exploitation team (HET), and a 12-man all-source fusion team. (See Figure 1.) The final administrative requirement was met in February 2003 when DC PP&O signed a memorandum of agreement (MOA) with the Deputy Commander, USSOCom. The MOA was jointly drafted by the Marine Corps and USSOCom and established the parameters for the proof of concept, including the mission, command relationships, and resourcing for Det 1. A ceremony held aboard Camp Pendleton on 19 June 2003 marked the official activation of Det 1. Execution of the detachment mission training plan began in earnest the week following the activation and culminated with a 3week capstone exercise at the Nevada Test Site and Indian Springs Auxiliary Air Field, NV in December 2003. After participating in an Navy special warfare (NSW) certification exercise and conducting additional sustainment training, Det 1 deployed to Baghdad for Operation IRAQI FREEDOM II (OIF II) in April 2004, just over 9 months after its activation. While operating as part of an NSW task group (NSWTG), Det 1 executed a number of direct action, coalition support, and battlefield shaping missions under the regional combined joint special operations task force (CJSOTF). By all accounts, Det 1 excelled and earned a reputation for professionalism, competence, and being "user friendly." A study conducted by the Joint Special Operations University (JSOU) found: The operational effectiveness of the MCSOCOM Det was high. . . . The trial deployment demonstrated the MCSOCOM Det could effectively conduct Direct Action (DA) and Special Reconnaissance (SR) in conjunction with a Naval Special Warfare Task Group
 
Quote    Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7   NEXT
SCCOMarine       12/27/2006 9:27:39 PM
""Precision shooting" isn't a regular classification of CQB. Precision shooting typically means developing the ability to shoot very accurate and precisely at long distances. I am not buying that FR DAP is any better than SEALs at DA, quit honestly. There is just no way to prove this and no way to know, we are both biased."
 
    Precision shooting is term used in both Long and close shooting. What it refers to is the 1% shot. The 1% shot is shooting the outline of a person behind a person. Whether at close range or thru a scope at a few hundred yrds PS refers to the 1% shot.
 
    There is a way to prove it read the report.  It was produced by SOCOM, headed by a Navy SEAL LtCmd Mark Divine.  When he was BUD/S class honorman when he went so he's not some schmuck.  In it he states that the DA element of the Det, which was a FR/DAP, has DA capabilities not found outside Tier 1 SMUs.  The Det as a whole made 10% of SOF in Iraq but netted 20% of the captured/killed including 9 HVT's in less than 6mths.
 
    I'm not trying to be sarcastic but there are only 2 Tier 1 SMUs in the DOD, Delta and DevGru. SEALs make up DevGru but SEAL teams don't shoot at DevGru's level.
 
    I also asked to look up their relationship in the ARG/MEU's MSPF.  When they deployed together FR was lead on DA, the SEAL strike plt was support.  You don't have to believe me just read for yourself.  Its not to degrade the SEALs, its just for you to understand how good FR really is.
 
 
Quote    Reply

SCCOMarine       12/27/2006 11:31:21 PM
"I understand that most Marines have combat experience prior to going to BRC, but what does that have to do with being good operators? BUD/S weeds out the losers and SQT and pre-deployment developes the qualities that are needed for SEALs."

    Another point that is missed is that most of those losers that are cut from BUD/S would have never made it past screening to get into the FR pipeline. The SEAL screening takes a few hour. The reason being is that the SEALs are running low on Candidates.  FR's is almost 40hrs. long much more intense and all the standards are much higher, and might only accept 2or3 out of 40 to begin a pipeline that is mostly classified.

"I understand that most Marines have combat experience prior to going to BRC"
 
    I think you hear it but you don't yet have an understanding of what that means. In one of the interviews LtCmd Divine did for NRO(National Review Online) he stated part of his observation of Det 1 had him in Fallujah sitting in a "hide sites" observing Det 1 conduct battlefield shaping, which is a specialty of FR, during the siege of the city.  He moved from site to site over the course of  2 weeks, doing CAS, calling Cas/Evacs, reporting on the Grunts and the insurgent movement from the shadows.  During that time he watched the would watch the same Squads of Marines E-1 thru E-5 from various companies(Marine Squads move with much more autonomy than any other infantry squad, thru a decentralized chain-of-command) day after day, night after night.  He watched them clear hundreds of builidings, kill thousands of insurgents, and lose scores of friends and leaders, in the scorching Iraq heat on little to no sleep for 2 wks straight.  With no fear, bitches, moans, or complaints, they basically blocked everything out and ran on Auto-pilot.
   -Best friend got killed on a Dynamic Entry: Clear the building, pick his body up, call an evac, keep pushing. 
   -Squad leader got smoked by a sniper crossing the street: suppress fire, pick up body/evac, next Marine in line Take     Charge & carryout the plan of attack. 
    Building after building he watched young Marines carryout the mission oblivious to their personal loss or fatigue.  Thats what caused him to say, "the United States Marine Corps is the greatest Fighting Force the world has ever seen!"  Its not just b/c of the young Marines he watched push thru city of Fallujah, but b/c he knew that there was a Corps of 175,000 more just like them.  Trained to operate in small units and subdue pain and sleep deprivation to accomplish their mission.
   He was the honorman of his BUD/S class so if there's anyone who's opinion holds weight when talking about pain and perserverance its him.
    The point is that these are the young Marines whom Divine observed aren't even old enough or experienced enough to try out for Force Recon. And for every 40 of those Marines he observered at that time barely 2-3 will make it thru FRs 2day screening.
 
Quote    Reply

GOP       12/28/2006 11:41:15 AM

MMA thats conducted in a gym and that of H2H is much different. Competative MMA practioners usually very good, technically proficient, each pratictioner forms a style and tech suited for them by mixing martial arts. In your gym there's problably 5-10 serious fighters w/around 5 or more yrs exp, thats group 1; another 10-20 pretty good guys in the wings who put in there time and with more time & effort could be really effective, group 2; and a lot of beginners, a few half commited guys, maybe a few poser, group 3. The you have that same situation any military CCT.

    The point is amongst them is the liberty to experiment, take what they like and improve or stagnate.  Prior to MCMAP that didn't not exist in military CCT.  Yeah they could go learn on there own, but it wasn't part of their official CCT.

   What CCT consisted of, no matter the branch or Unit, was a series of movements and scenarios.  Very uniformed, really "this is the situation" type training.  MCMAP brought Martial Arts to CCT, form, flexibility of technique, and strategy only found in an actual M.A.

   The two Marines who are at your Gym ask them to show you the Certificate for the highest level that they've achieved in MCMAP.  Its not to call them out but for you to understand that prior to Black everything else is basic, building block techniques necessary to understand the concepts of the advanced levels of Black.  If they're rank is less than Sgt than they've never even reached the first stage of black which the 1st advanced course.  Each level of black is preceded by an 8wk 12hr/day course in which you take all the basics of the previous yrs and then learn the real technique behind them.  These courses are followed by almost 2yrs of sustainment training and workshops. 

    It takes 4yrs to go from tan to black. The black courses are not meant to be completed in less than another 8yrs.  Thats no less than 12yrs to complete the entire MCMAP program.

    You should be able log on to TECom (training and educ. command) and verify what I'm saying. I believe its under "Road Maps". Should also be able to yahoo/google MCMAP (Marine Corps martial arts program), MACE (Martial Arts Center for Excellence) and various other terms that I have used.  There have been many articles written by various MA mags, many MMA stars from around the world do workshops at Quantico and there are articles on that in yahoo/google.


My instructor was in the USMC for about 6 years, not sure what belt he reached. The guy is freaking awesome though...he has fought in several pro bouts (I believe King of the Cage), and is working on his black belt in BJJ (he is also an excellent MT fighter). One of our fighters is the ISCF Bantam weight champion. Another has only been training for 2 years but has a ton of potential, and another is 40-3 in Amatuer fights. Our gym is extremely well respected in our region (we are a very small school with weak facilities but we do alot of camps with big gym's with UFC fighters). I have just always found it funny that alot of the young Marines I meet think they are the baddest mf'ers on the planet because of their "H2H killing ability" or whatever. MCMAP is probably a good basic program overall, but even at the black belt level I think the teaching is still focused on mastering the basics (which ain't a bad idea considering how the USMC has around 100,000 Marines doing their program). This is probably much different though at the FR/Det 1 level (I'm sure you guys get much better instruction at that level than compared to your typical line support company, etc).
 
 
Quote    Reply

GOP       12/28/2006 11:46:58 AM

""Precision shooting" isn't a regular classification of CQB. Precision shooting typically means developing the ability to shoot very accurate and precisely at long distances. I am not buying that FR DAP is any better than SEALs at DA, quit honestly. There is just no way to prove this and no way to know, we are both biased."

 

    Precision shooting is term used in both Long and close shooting. What it refers to is the 1% shot. The 1% shot is shooting the outline of a person behind a person. Whether at close range or thru a scope at a few hundred yrds PS refers to the 1% shot.

 

    There is a way to prove it read the report.  It was produced by SOCOM, headed by a Navy SEAL LtCmd Mark Divine.  When he was BUD/S class honorman when he went so he's not some schmuck.  In it he states that the DA element of the Det, which was a FR/DAP, has DA capabilities not found outside Tier 1 SMUs.  The Det as a whole made 10% of SOF in Iraq but netted 20% of the captured/killed including 9 HVT's in less than 6mths.

 

    I'm not trying to be sarcastic but there are only 2 Tier 1 SMUs in the DOD, Delta and DevGru. SEALs make up DevGru but SEAL teams don't shoot at DevGru's level.

 

    I also asked to look up their relationship in the ARG/MEU's MSPF.  When they deployed together FR was lead on DA, the SEAL strike plt was support.  You don't have to believe me just read for yourself.  Its not to degrade the SEALs, its just for you to understand how good FR really is.

 


I understand that FR/DAP's are extremely good at their job, but there is also reports that say that SF DA platoons are on the Tier 1 level in DA. Also, the DA element of Det 1 should be extremely good, considering how Det 1 is basically a Tier 1 unit. However, I believe that typical FR platoons are equal or slightly worse than SEAL units at DA.
 
Quote    Reply

mough       12/28/2006 4:01:28 PM
I love threads like this.......just love um...keep it up chaps
 
Quote    Reply

GOP       12/28/2006 5:20:20 PM

I love threads like this.......just love um...keep it up chaps

I do too. You should be posting your knowledge! Let us know what you think.
 
Quote    Reply

Horsesoldier       12/28/2006 7:32:09 PM


While I do think that the thread starter was being way too biased on the subject, I don't think that most Marines are as "creative as cinder blocks". Is it just me, or do you hate every other branch in the US military outside of the Army ?

Nah, I have nothing but respect for the AFSOC guys I've worked with.
More practically, if you look back, I've not really been critical of MARSOC in the past.  At least not until some mouthbreather who either is a marine or really, really wants to be had to go and start a thread about the usual "USMC Uber Alles" drivel.  At that point, I just felt someone needed some body part busted.
 
Realistically, I do think MARSOC will do a very good job, if and only if the non-visionary conventionalists in the senior ranks of the USMC keep their noses out and let it become a special operations force.  Could go either way, but my guess is it will go well while the way is on, and fall apart once peace breaks out (when the military will generally rediscover its fetish for haircuts, boots you can shine, uniforms you can starch and the rest of that silliness).

 
Quote    Reply

Horsesoldier       12/28/2006 7:38:22 PM
Also, just to point out some features I'm sure many others have noted in this thread:
 
a)  A new poster turns up
b) He likes to cut and paste massive quotes from official DoD publications, with personal tidbits thrown in haphazardly
c) He likes to drop names to justify his opinions
d) He is apparently got a big hand up on martial arts.
 
 
Those who have been around the block here on SP a time or two will recognize all the hallmarks of Braddock having turned back up.  Apparently, he's now all stoked about the marines (I guess all that pressure to put up or shut up about joining 20th SFG(A) got to him?), but even if the song has changed, the underlying insanity seems largely the same.
 
Quote    Reply

GOP       12/28/2006 7:47:59 PM
Yeah Hs, alot of this is typical USMC brain-washed "Oorah Oorah!!! Devil Dogs!!! Get Some!!! KILL KILL KILL!!! USMC!!!" garbage, but some of his points are pretty good. I just don't buy the fact that FR is better at DA than the Teams or is equal to Tier 1 units. It is true that Det 1 DAP's are extremely good, but Det 1 is made up of the best FR guys in the USMC.
 
 But hey, we are all entitled to our opinion and if he can conclusively prove his point, then I might change my opinion. The funny thing is that alot of SEALs are helping develope MARSOC and are monitoring Det 1 for SOCOM and will give an evaluation on there performance, so SOCOM must believe differently than SCCOMMARINE
 
Quote    Reply

longrifle       12/28/2006 8:01:13 PM
"We spent the last decade of the 20th century untangling ourselves from serving as the Navy's gate guards and orderlies; without a credible force operating as a peer with other-Service SOF, we will likely assume a similar role for USSOCom-guarding forward operating bases, providing logistics and intel support, and otherwise freeing a SOF warrior to wage the "real fight." While that may be acceptable to some Marines (and hopefully to at least a few civilians considering becoming Marines), we will lose any claim to the "first to fight" and "every Marine a rifleman" ethos that have defined our Corps to this point."

I admire the "every Marine a rifleman" ethos, but the Marine Corps aquired the "first to fight" reputation back in the late 19th/early 20th Century when you couldn't project an expeditionary force someplace if you couldn't get them there by sea.   They've been out stormtroopered in the expeditionary role on several occasons by the Army since the airplane and the parachute became a reality.  They know this too, that's one reason they're trying to transform themselves into a quasi air assault force.  Witness the importance they place on the Osprey and terms like "Operational Manuever from the Sea."

The 9th Marine Expeditionary Brigade arrived in Da Nang, SVN, on March 8, 1965, amid the typical Marine Corps propaganda of "first to fight."  Somebody forgot to inform them that Army Special Forces Captain Roger Hugh Donlon had been awarded the Medal of Honor for actions on July 6, 1964.....also in SVN.  They were a little late to claim a "first."

Tun Tavern legends not withstanding, the Marine Corps wasn't exactly first to fight for America during most of her  frontier and colonial era either.    
 
Quote    Reply
PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7   NEXT



 Latest
 News
 
 Most
 Read
 
 Most
 Commented
 Hot
 Topics