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Subject: Hey if the UK & America have the best Special Op's Forces - Where Osama?
human7    8/12/2004 10:18:14 PM
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:CmdPstSig   4/10/2006 1:08:59 PM
>>LOL, reread his posts. Horse is just a Talking Head with a case of chronic verbal diarrhea. He never provides facts or links, just sarcasm and personal attacks.<< As I pointed out, your arguments in this thread have been emphatically refuted by others (Shek in this case), so why should I bother repeating his effort when you've yet to answer any of his questions in a satisfactory and coherent manner? >>Ever notice he never starts a discussion thread?<< Lizard King, your ignorance is showing again.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Conspiracy Theories . . . HorseSoldier (blowback)   4/10/2006 1:14:59 PM
>>"In this particular case, I really have no need to provide facts because" Because you do not have any.<< Because you've already been embarassed in detail by others in this thread, and challenging me to meet their level of citation and quotation is nothing but your attempt to distract attention away from how utterly hollow your argument is, and has been demonstrated to be. >>"He also demonstrates how Afghanistan became a deadly playing field for international politics where Soviet, Pakistani, and U.S. agents armed and trained a succession of warring factions"<< And so? That sentence does not support your particular contentions at all. Again, I recognize you are not working in your native language, but I'm surprised you cannot grasp the literal meaning of such unnuanced speech and instead map your interpretation onto a rather neutral bit of written English. Certainly your "quotation" has absolutely zero bearing on whether or not the author of the book described foreign mujaheddin activity as "outward bound for rich Arabs," which is that specific information involved in the original quote. Your attempt to straw man it up into some more sweeping generalization simply indicates shoddy work on your part . . . yet again.
 
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The Lizard King    RE:Conspiracy Theories . . . HorseSoldier (blowback)   4/10/2006 1:17:06 PM
"I recognize you are not working in your native language" I am American as obesity.
 
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CmdPstSig    RE:CmdPstSig   4/10/2006 2:04:22 PM
"but your attempt to distract attention away from how utterly hollow your argument is, and has been demonstrated to be." And I’m still waiting for you to divulge what evidence you have regarding my apparent drug addiction. Unless that was an attempt at comedy? I'd stick to being an obnoxious smart arse, if I were you. You’re about as funny as a dose of the clap.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:CmdPstSig   4/10/2006 2:15:52 PM
>>And I’m still waiting for you to divulge what evidence you have regarding my apparent drug addiction. << Ah -- I see. You're still struggling with the Kool-Aid comment, aren't you? Hmmmm . . . curious. Might I suggest you take a good hard look at yourself and see if you really think you're the right guy to try and use "you don't get out much, do you?" as an insult? I suspect you're not exactly playing to your strengths on that one . . .
 
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shek    RE:NSDD 166 - anuts   4/10/2006 2:30:51 PM
The intention is not to bolster my position, but to see were shek & horse are in the food chain. Pretty revealing that they both give us lectures on the Afghan/Soviet war but have never heard of this document. -Akin to talking about the American Revolutionary War & not knowing about the declaration of independence. Interesting that some individuals sit in a class room and listen to guest lecturers and think this makes them subject experts. LK, Please show me where I have claimed to be a subject matter expert on the Soviet-Afghan War. I have clearly indicated that I had done some reading on the Afghani mujahadeen's tactics against the Soviets prior to OIF kicking, as I saw Afghanistan as the most likely place for SBCT I to be deployed following its certification. If you wish to take this as some sort of proclamation that I am an expert, then that is your issue. As far as where I'm at on the food chain, summer interns regularly have much higher clearances than I do. However, my argument does not rest on what qualifications I have or don't have, but instead are based on the following statements from primary sources within both AQ and the CIA who are the ones who would know:
Bearden Former CIA official Milt Bearden, who ran the Agency's Afghan operation in the late 1980s, says, "The CIA did not recruit Arabs," as there was no need to do so. There were hundreds of thousands of Afghans all too willing to fight, and the Arabs who did come for jihad were "very disruptive . . . the Afghans thought they were a pain in the ass." [Holy War, Inc.: Inside the Secret World of Osama bin Laden (New York: The Free Press, 2001), pp. 64-66.] "Contrary to what people have come to imagine, the CIA never recruited, trained, or otherwise used Arab volunteers. The Afghans were more than happy to do their own fighting -- we saw no reason not to satisfy them on this point." (The Main Enemy, p. 243) Zawahiri "While the United States backed Pakistan and the mujahidin factions with money and equipment, the young Arab mujahidin's relationship with the United States was totally different." "... The financing of the activities of the Arab mujahidin in Afghanistan came from aid sent to Afghanistan by popular organizations. It was substantial aid." "The Arab mujahidin did not confine themselves to financing their own jihad but also carried Muslim donations to the Afghan mujahidin themselves. Usama Bin Ladin has apprised me of the size of the popular Arab support for the Afghan mujahidin that amounted, according to his sources, to $200 million in the form of military aid alone in 10 years. Imagine how much aid was sent by popular Arab organizations in the non-military fields such as medicine and health, education and vocational training, food, and social assistance ...." "Through the unofficial popular support, the Arab mujahidin established training centers and centers for the call to the faith. They formed fronts that trained and equipped thousands of Arab mujahidin and provided them with living expenses, housing, travel and organization." (Al-Sharq al-Awsat, December 3, 2001, Foreign Broadcast Information Service (FBIS), GMP20011202000401) Sageman No U.S. official ever came in contact with the foreign volunteers. They simply traveled in different circles and never crossed U.S. radar screens. They had their own sources of money and their own contacts with the Pakistanis, official Saudis, and other Muslim supporters, and they made their own deals with the various Afghan resistance leaders. Their presence in Afghanistan was very small and they did not participate in any significant fighting." (Understanding Terror Networks, pp. 57-58.
Your only challenge to these statements so far has been to link to sources that are suspect at best. And again, you seem to think very highly of NSDD 166, a still classified document. Either you have read it and are therefore behaving in a manner that would be of great interest to your security officer, or you haven't read it, and are basing your argument on the oblique reference to it from one of your suspect sources. So, please explain to me how NSDD 166 explicitly demonstrates that the US funded AQ or any other Arab groups during the Afghan-Soviet War. It's been over a week and you haven't provided any additional information other than to assert that it does.
 
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The Lizard King    shek   4/10/2006 3:24:09 PM
"It's been over a week and you haven't provided any additional information other than to assert that it does." I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!
 
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CmdPstSig    RE:CmdPstSig   4/10/2006 3:37:28 PM
"Ah -- I see. You're still struggling with the Kool-Aid comment, aren't you? Hmmmm . . . curious. Might I suggest you take a good hard look at yourself and see if you really think you're the right guy to try and use "you don't get out much, do you?" as an insult? I suspect you're not exactly playing to your strengths on that one . . ." So what you’re saying is that because I don't know what 'Kool-Aid' is I don't get out much? Do you consider your knowledge of 'Kool-Aid' a strength? That'd be you talking bollocks again. You really, really are sad. I bet you play 'Dungeons and Dragons' My guess is it's probably an American thing, and as I'm as English as Newcastle brown ale, I have never come across it before. You still haven't answered my question though. What evidence have you got that I have any kind of drug habit? I'm sure you do get out allot... But going to star trek conventions isn't really socializing, old bean.
 
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shek    RE:shek   4/10/2006 3:51:08 PM
Lizard King, That's a pretty weak response. I'm at graduate school because the Army has sent me here and is fully funding it. I've been on active duty for nearly a decade, and I'm a proud veteran of Operation Iraqi Freedom. If you think that drawing attention to these facts somehow will obscure the fact that you still try to bolster your case through suspect links in the fact of direct quotations from primary sources, then so be it. This debate won't be won or lost over the construction of strawmen arguments or the use of ad hominem attacks, but over the merits of one's argument. The fact that you ignore fair questions, produce no new material, and have taken to trying to discredit your antagonists (doesn't seem to be working, BTW) is a pretty strong indication that you feel you are losing the debate. That about squares 100% with Horsesoldier's comments.
 
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The Lizard King    Shek   4/10/2006 4:00:54 PM
 
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