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Subject: Unconventional warfare v. direct action.
longrifle    7/4/2006 6:11:34 PM
I found this article on another board and thought it looked like something that would interest a lot of readers here. I remember reading that Colonel Aaran Bank warned about this when SF was first formed. He was concerned that SF would be used as a commando force when so much more could be accompolished by using them as a force mulitplier.

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By Sean D. Naylor
Army Times staff writer

U.S. Special Operations Command must not allow a focus on ?direct action? missions to kill or capture enemies to overwhelm its responsibility for the more ?indirect? methods associated with unconventional warfare, a panel of experts warned Congress on June 29.

?This struggle is more than the global manhunt, it?s more than the direct action piece, it?s more than combat,? retired Army Gen. Wayne Downing, a former SOCom chief, told the House Armed Services subcommittee on terrorism, unconventional threats and capabilities.

?These are necessary activities in Iraq and Afghanistan, but they are not enough,? Downing said.

Downing was speaking at a hearing on SOCom?s missions and responsibilities. In their opening statements, Reps. Jim Saxton, R-N.J., the subcommittee chairman, and Marty Meehan, D-Mass., the panel?s ranking Democrat, both raised the issue of whether the command is focused too much on direct action at the expense of unconventional capabilities that could prove more decisive in achieving strategic success in the war on terrorism.

In the U.S. special operations community, direct action has been the preserve of Joint Special Operations Command, a SOCom subordinate element based at Pope Air Force Base, N.C.

JSOC comprises the military?s most secretive ?special mission units,? such as the Army?s 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta, the Navy?s SEAL Team 6, the Army?s 75th Ranger Regiment and 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment, and the Air Force?s 24th Special Tactics Squadron. Other Navy SEAL units also specialize in direct action.

But unconventional warfare, which includes working with foreign guerrilla forces, is often used to describe a wider range of ?nonkinetic? missions, such as training foreign militaries, that traditionally have belonged to Special Forces. There have long been rumblings of discontent in the Special Forces community that their skills are not as highly prized within SOCom as those of units specializing in direct action.

?We?ve got to get after developing friends and allies and proxies, because when you fight an insurgency, the best people to do this are the host countries, not American forces,? said Downing, a former Ranger.

Max Boot, a senior fellow in national security studies at the Council on Foreign Relations, was more critical, saying SOCom ?falls far short of what we need? by being overly focused on direct action ? ?rappelling out of helicopters, kicking down doors, and capturing or killing bad guys.?

While such strategy sometimes pays off with the elimination of individual enemy leaders such as Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, ?making real progress, whether in Iraq or other locales, will require accomplishing much more difficult, less glamorous tasks such as establishing security, furthering economic and political development, and spreading the right information to win over the populace,? he said.

Bias toward direct action

Boot quoted two unnamed Special Forces officers ? one a colonel, the other a general officer ? who wrote him complaining of what they saw as SOCom?s bias toward direct action.

That bias is so heavy, Boot said, that ?it is doubtful any amount of outside pressure, even from this committee, will change the dominant mind-set very much, especially when the Office of the Secretary of Defense remains so fixated on such missions.?

As a result, he said, there is ?growing interest? in the Special Forces community in possibly creating a Joint Unconventional Warfare Command within SOCom, which would gather Special Forces, civil affairs and psychological operations units in an unconventional warfare equivalent to the existing Joint Special Operations Command.

?This strikes me as a good idea,? Boot said. ?But I would also urge the committee to consider going further and removing the unconventional warfare mission from SOCom altogether.?

Former Special Forces officer and CIA operative Michael Vickers, now director of strategic studies at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, a Washington think tank, said he thinks an unconventional warfare command within SOCom is a good idea.

However, he warned, this could ?tie up scarce [special operations forces] human capital in additional headquarters? and duplicate functions of SOCom?s newly established Center for Special Operations, which has the mission to plan, support and execute special operations.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Unconventional warfare v. direct action.   7/4/2006 6:27:31 PM
Some valid points, I think, though I'm really not wowed by the idea that the solution to a problem is the creation of another echelon of bureaucrats . . . but then that's how politicians and bureaucrats demonstrate themselves to be serious on a problem, I guess . . .
 
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USN-MID    RE:Unconventional warfare v. direct action.   7/4/2006 11:32:07 PM
It seems odd that JSOC is focusing on direct action, when OEF in Afghanistan seems to have been an absolute textbook case of the Special Forces force multiplier concept in action.
 
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EW3    RE:Unconventional warfare v. direct action. USN-MID   7/4/2006 11:58:29 PM
A response I have used on other threads. It's all about: marketing marketing marketing SOF does not get press from winning the hearts of the locals, they only get press when: 1. They fail to catch someone important. 2. They kill someone important. Sad but true. I wish they had not integrated SOFs. Each has their own skillset. Integrated ops should be the exception and not the rule.
 
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mough    RE:Unconventional warfare v. direct action.   7/5/2006 11:08:02 AM
It seems odd that JSOC is focusing on direct action, when OEF in Afghanistan seems to have been an absolute textbook case of the Special Forces force multiplier concept in action.<< because DA mission's are sexy, and they get instant result's, you kill an enemy leader, you gather vital intell, ect, FID/UW is a long painfull step by step process, you have guy's working for month's soetimes year's on getting something done, that's just not cool, it does not make it onto the news, for instance, what's the biggest stories you remember from the earlier stages of the Afghan war...the raid on Mullah Omar's compund,, the SAS/SBS tunnel fight's, ect you don't hear about all the SF/SOF's team, leading the NA, or lasing for airstrike's too much, beacause that's not so cool
 
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mough    RE:Unconventional warfare v. direct action.   7/5/2006 11:09:45 AM
it's all about the action....which is sad, people have no attention span's anymore, if soemthing is not accomplished in a Day, then it's not worth the effort
 
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USN-MID    RE:Unconventional warfare v. direct action.   7/8/2006 8:24:23 PM
"it's all about the action....which is sad, people have no attention span's anymore, if soemthing is not accomplished in a Day, then it's not worth the effort" -This baby can deep fry a buffalo in 30 seconds! -30 seconds!? But I'm hungry NOW! :P
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Unconventional warfare v. direct action.   7/9/2006 9:24:28 AM
>>It seems odd that JSOC is focusing on direct action, when OEF in Afghanistan seems to have been an absolute textbook case of the Special Forces force multiplier concept in action. << JSOC does not control any Special Forces units, unless they are opconned to them for some specific operation. JSOC has all the national-level DA assets and supporting infrastructure -- CAG, DEVGRU, 24th STS, etc. It does not control anyone within US Army Special Forces Command, Civil Affairs & Psyops Command, AFSOC's flying units or special tactics units besides 24th STS (including 6th SOS, who specialize in the aviation side of FID), Naval Special Warfare units outside of DEVGRU, etc. It does not have the tools or the mission to do Unconventional Warfare of Foreign Internal Defense missions (I lump them together because they are very similar in particulars). The point of the article was not that JSOC is messing up but rather that the powers that be are complaining that guys outside of JSOC are overly focused on DA (you'll note that the SEALs managed to squeeze in a note about how they all do DA, for instance). I'm not entirely sure how timely the article is -- it does capture a sentiment within SOCOM about everyone wanting to kick doors and such. However, SOCOM assets have adapted (or been adapted) to requirements of current situations. The SEALs have had their leash yanked pretty hard by higher ups after their latest round(s) of problems and non-performance. SF may do lots of raids, but if you have indigs with you is it DA or FID/UW? Even the Rangers have done a lot of missions that look a lot more like FID than DA in the last couple years. And the Big Army/USMC/etc have stepped into a lot of FID roles that SOCOM is not really ideally cut out to perform (i.e. training indigenous forces equipped with gear like tanks, artillery, etc., that your average operator is not especially acquainted with).
 
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stratbert    RE:Unconventional warfare v. direct action.   7/12/2006 11:03:29 PM
"""The SEALs have had their leash yanked pretty hard by higher ups after their latest round(s) of problems and non-performance. """ The SEALs overseas right now have an outstanding reputation for taking the fight to the enemy. Period. What this office clown says on a message board can't change that. Everyone here needs to understand Horsesoldier has a bias against the SEALs for some reason.(read his past posts) Maybe they are too loud. Maybe because they don't have Army regulation haircuts. Maybe they are a little y. Maybe one of them stole his girlfriend...who knows. They are getting the job done and then some. "Non-performance" ? You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. For at least one of those 8 hours a day you sit at keyboard, try reading some AARs. They are kicking ass. God Bless our deployed Team guys. I hope you all come home safe.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Unconventional warfare v. direct action.   7/13/2006 9:34:51 AM
>>The SEALs overseas right now have an outstanding reputation for taking the fight to the enemy. Period. << That's funny, being within SOCOM versus where ever it is you call home, I'd say they have a reputation for getting themselves killed, in a best case scenario, and taking non-SEAL US military personnel down with them, in a worst case scenario. I'm sorry if that troubles you, but it is what it is -- even when someone within the SOF community but outside the SEALs does have something good to say about SEALs, it tends to be backed up with phrases like, "Well, these particular SEALs were pretty good guys, unlike the rest," etc. If you have to tell yourself that Army and Air Force SOF operators are just jealous of the mighty SEALs . . . hey, whatever lets you sleep at night. I don't see a lot of SF, Rangers, PJs or CCTs lining up to try and get into BUD/S though . . . End of the day, if their reputation is so stellar, then why are they losing missions to other SOF units and even conventional units? Why are SEALs in theater known for doing very little beyond "Sleep, Eat and Lift," while other folks actually get on with the business of winning the war (and do so without killing their own guys in droves)? As for your allegation of a personal grudge -- nope. If pointing out the holes in the hype constitutes a "personal grudge" in your world, I think you should attend to your own insecurities and willingness to believe in myths. As for riding a desk -- I'm amused to hear someone apparently affiliated with the Navy tell me *I* spend too much time at a desk. Can you even spell "field training"? Ever even been on a flat range or out in the woods?
 
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longrifle    RE:Unconventional warfare v. direct action.   7/13/2006 12:46:34 PM
>>The SEALs overseas right now have an outstanding reputation for taking the fight to the enemy. Period.<< Whether they do or don't, to me the point of the whole article is this: In spite of all the super duper commando raiding forces out there, including Delta, Aaron Bank's original model and ideas are still often the most usefull. Americans, the public and the military, don't seen to have the patience for unconventional warfare and counterinsurgency though. We didn't have ranger battalions in Vietnam, but we did have things like Mobile Strike Forces and Mobile Guerrilla Forces that sure enough did some tough "ranging." And each one tied up 12 Americans to advise it, instead of 500 Americans to staff it.
 
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stratbert    RE:Unconventional warfare v. direct action.   7/14/2006 1:20:26 AM
Horsesoldier, How many times have you personally worked with the SEALs?
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Unconventional warfare v. direct action.   7/14/2006 9:30:16 AM
How many times I've worked with SEALs has zero to do with their reputation for being substandard within the special operations community. I've outlined my limited direct experience with SEALs in a number of posts concerning them, and have pointed out that my admittedly limited experience supports their reputation for being unprofessional. Any more questions, bert?
 
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Boondocks    RE:Unconventional warfare v. direct action.   7/17/2006 3:17:01 AM
I'm Back! I have been reading this thread and let me say that from reading Horsesoldiers post throughout this forum I have to say that I think he knows what he is talking about. I was reading his post in the past and it dawned on me-Horsesoldier? Cavalry? Or Maybe not, but anyways I maybe a little bit bias towards Army SF because my father was in the 7th SF but from someone who doesn't and wished he had served I have all the respect in the world for Seals and all the men and women who serve. The Seals in my opinion are the best at there specialty (Waterborne missions) but as you can read in my earlier post (Seals versus SAS) SEALS bring a lot of the negative attitudes about them on themselves. It isn't that SEALS are not great at what they do regardless at some of the blunders they had, it is that they want everyone to know it and if you are going to bragg as much as they do about such things as being the best at CQB, DA etc.. and that BUDS is the hardest training in the US military then of course people are not going respect you much. I do not know much about the SEALS from a soldiers standpoint but I just happened to talk to a Reservist the other day who served in Iraq as a Ranger in the 75th out of Ft. Lewis and he said that SEALS tend y and arrogant. He said they think they are the best at everything and were very unprofessional. He said not all but some of the ones he came in contact were. He said there was a platoon he came in contact with that were really cool and he mentioned that while Rangers and SF do a lot of rucksack marches and training with rucksacks in excess of over two hundred pounds in some cases if you put that on the back of a SEAL he probably could not take it. Then he said that if you put the SEALS in the water they could swim circles around him. This is due to training. They are just trained to different things. This is not to say that Army SF Scuba couldn't do what SEALS do in the water or a Seals team couldn't carry a ruck sack on a mission, it is just that SF and Rangers train all the time with rucksacks on there back. Same with SEALS, they train in the water for half of BUDS. Seals always claim Buds is the hardest training in the military. Well that is true to a point, but you need to put in the words "some of" in front of hardest. Army SF Q-Course is one of the hardest also and maybe harder than BUDS in some respects. In the Q-course they don't even use your name, you are just a number. In the Q-Course it isn't if you just take the punishment they dish out and if you survive and do not quit you make it. They are always observing you and if they see something they do not like they yank you (Which happens most of the time). They tell you to run with a 60 pound ruck sack. They do not tell how far or how fast. They just tell you to run. And Ranger training (Both the 25 day indoctination and the 60 day Ranger tab) are just as hard. The SEALS talk about "Hell Week" well the Rangers spend 60 days with sleep deprivation and same with SF. They don't have "Hell Week" they both have Hell months. The point is that there are other Spec Ops units including Air Force and Marine recon that are just as hard but you do not see a lot of documentaries about this these training schools like you do BUDS. The reason why people direspect the SEALS, other than as Horsesoldier stated that they are unprofessional and basically screw up a lot is that they talk the talk a lot. It is like a person having a lot of money and claiming he has the most money in the world. He may have a lot of money but you are not going to get a lot of respect if you tell everyone or act like your don't stink. Also you may not be the richest person the world you just proclaim you are. I don't think Horsesoldier means any direspect to the Seals, it is just that the claims by a lot of the people on this forum and the general public is that the SEALS are the most elite at everything from CQB to DA missions and that Army SF just do UW missions and are not a true elite Spec Ops unit (I am refering to the douchebag that said that he didn't consider Army SF to be spec ops and they were not in the same class as Rangers, Seals etc.. or something along those lines. That made me laugh.) and do not do as many or are as good as SEALS at DA missions is bull! First off the UW missions. The world works a lot differently than most people think. Iraq was not just some spare of the moment thing that Cheney and Bush thought up. It is just a little part or the begining of a plan by Bush to chill the Middle East the F--k Out. People (especially the general "clueless" public) look at things black or white and I do to an extent. For instance they killed 3000 of our innocent, we kill many more of the terrorist to make sure it does not happen again and to send a message. That simple. But there is a big grey part. Bush plans to take down the middle east. (Not Occupy like many libs think) but take down. Stop terrorism where it started. To get a strong hold in the middle east.(Iraq) This will protect us. The Middle East is like the Mob. There may be different countries (mob families) but they all work together and are all in business for one thing, to destroy the infidels. (Racqueteering, drugs, prostitution etc..) Believe me the weapons were there and Kadafi's WMD program, which he was so quick to give up (Reagan, rockets, bombing his house and killing his daughter must have sent a message. Go Reagan!) may have actually been Saddams but I don't know that for sure. What does this have to do with UW? Well It is just an example to explain why UW missions are so important and so difficult. Like Bush's overall plan for the war on terror when Army SF and SEALS (I know this is hard for some of you to believe, but SEALS do those boring non DA missions also and are good at it. Though not to the extent that SF does) conduct peacetime and war time UW and FID missions, this not only helps train our allies, helps us with the war on drugs (training and also fighting with the Columbian SF and police to combat drug trade) but also builds R-E-L-A-T-I-O-N-S-H-I-P-S. And in the war on terror that can be your best friend. It is an overall strategy. You see relationships you build today can help you tommorow just like in business and everything else. When Army SF ODA Teams were doing nation building and developing relationships through FID and UW missions (Again ,I know this is too boring and not DA enough for SEALS) pre-9/11 in places like, Oh!!! Afghanistan and all over the world like the Phillipines where 90% of the country is Muslim, they were not over there in the middle east or elsewhere training there militaries and helping there sick and building hospitals for the hell of it. They were developing friends and contacts to be used someday if we needed them, which, HOLY ! we did. UW is used to help spread democracy by helping countries which believe in democracy and are friends of the U.S. to protect themselves and in turn protect us, help fight the drug war, and when the hits the fan helps develop a coalition whos soldiers have already fought side by side before we may even need it. As far as contacts well read "Masters of Chaos" and you will see how Army SF helped win that war. Even though they were not doing extensive if any training in Afghanistan at the time they new how to link up with locals and train, fight and win side by side with them. Besides the CIA Special Activities Staff operators (Read "Jawbreaker") that were in the country days after 9/11 the next unit to be inserted was an Army SF ODA team, not SEALS. Why? Because the goverment and the military needed soldiers that could drop in with 200 plus pounds of on there backs and rucksack and link up, win the trust of, get intelligence off of and fight with the local rebels. (Harmid Karzai). And Army SF did not just call air strikes they were hunting terrorist in caves, doing recon, and many other direct action missions. (Besides some of you act like getting in behind enemy lines with only a 12 man A-Team or less and evading the enemy to call in airstrikes that drop sometimes right on top of you like in the case of one ODA Team that lost a couple of guys is Easy. Like to see you do it?) Want to know if they do DA in Iraq? There is a new book out called "Roughneck Nine-One" about two A-Teams that fought a whole company of Saddams elite Republican Guard (The Iraqis had tanks) and they won the battle. So Unconventional Warfare or Direct Action? How about Army SF and even SEALS do both and doing UW can make it a hell of a lot easier to do DA as we saw in Afgahn and Iraq. All regular spec ops units can do raids, assaults etc...(DA) and all of them can do it about the same, but to say that UW is somehow less important or not as much action as DA then that is just plane idiotic. Here is a thought, Maybe Colonel Banks had it right all along and maybe that is why most of us wish we were spec ops.
 
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Boondocks    RE:Unconventional warfare v. direct action.   7/17/2006 3:47:08 AM
By the way Horse soldier has a good point when he says that other units like SF and Delta are getting the missions over the SEALS. Read this article: link I posted the link in a previous post. I also have posted an article about how Army SF is being used as spies because of their "CONTACTS" they develop when doing boring old UW missions. link
 
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GOP    RE:Unconventional warfare v. direct action.   7/17/2006 11:22:19 AM
>>How many times I've worked with SEALs has zero to do with their reputation for being substandard within the special operations community. I've outlined my limited direct experience with SEALs in a number of posts concerning them, and have pointed out that my admittedly limited experience supports their reputation for being unprofessional. Any more questions, bert? << Why does every Special Operations discussion on this board always turn into "SEALs suck" or "SEALs are the best"...I have added to this myself. SEALs are dang good at what they are trained to do...they did an unbelievable job in 'Nam, and have done a very good job in Afghanistan and Iraq. Horsesoldier, the SEALs cannot help that their Chopper malfunctions in Afghanistan, or that they are being used in the wrong roles at times (this is a command/leadership issue). Maybe the SEALs are losing missions because SOCOM has learned that their are other units more capable at certain tasks then the SEALs (SF for Recon, AFSOC for CAS, etc)...but when it comes to DA (and anything involving any kind of water), they are very succesful. They are also extremely aggressive, and very good at killing the enemy (you will probably bring up their casualty level, but if we are going to say that the SEALs die in droves, then I want to see a comparison across SOCOM and per operator). I seriously think that you have no idea about what goes on, mainly because you and I are not in a position to know what ops these guys and the other SOCOM units are pulling. Maybe the SF guys that you talk to are pissed at the SEALs because they take their missions...or maybe just because it is something like sibling rivarly. I really don't know, but you calling SEALs substandard is absolutely ridiculous. What is this based on? I need names of ops, casualty comparisons, rate of succusful ops per unit, enemy WIA/KIA numbers per unit, and other things that you obviously can't supply.
 
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