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Subject: Unconventional warfare v. direct action.
longrifle    7/4/2006 6:11:34 PM
I found this article on another board and thought it looked like something that would interest a lot of readers here. I remember reading that Colonel Aaran Bank warned about this when SF was first formed. He was concerned that SF would be used as a commando force when so much more could be accompolished by using them as a force mulitplier. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- By Sean D. Naylor Army Times staff writer U.S. Special Operations Command must not allow a focus on “direct action” missions to kill or capture enemies to overwhelm its responsibility for the more “indirect” methods associated with unconventional warfare, a panel of experts warned Congress on June 29. “This struggle is more than the global manhunt, it’s more than the direct action piece, it’s more than combat,” retired Army Gen. Wayne Downing, a former SOCom chief, told the House Armed Services subcommittee on terrorism, unconventional threats and capabilities. “These are necessary activities in Iraq and Afghanistan, but they are not enough,” Downing said. Downing was speaking at a hearing on SOCom’s missions and responsibilities. In their opening statements, Reps. Jim Saxton, R-N.J., the subcommittee chairman, and Marty Meehan, D-Mass., the panel’s ranking Democrat, both raised the issue of whether the command is focused too much on direct action at the expense of unconventional capabilities that could prove more decisive in achieving strategic success in the war on terrorism. In the U.S. special operations community, direct action has been the preserve of Joint Special Operations Command, a SOCom subordinate element based at Pope Air Force Base, N.C. JSOC comprises the military’s most secretive “special mission units,” such as the Army’s 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta, the Navy’s SEAL Team 6, the Army’s 75th Ranger Regiment and 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment, and the Air Force’s 24th Special Tactics Squadron. Other Navy SEAL units also specialize in direct action. But unconventional warfare, which includes working with foreign guerrilla forces, is often used to describe a wider range of “nonkinetic” missions, such as training foreign militaries, that traditionally have belonged to Special Forces. There have long been rumblings of discontent in the Special Forces community that their skills are not as highly prized within SOCom as those of units specializing in direct action. “We’ve got to get after developing friends and allies and proxies, because when you fight an insurgency, the best people to do this are the host countries, not American forces,” said Downing, a former Ranger. Max Boot, a senior fellow in national security studies at the Council on Foreign Relations, was more critical, saying SOCom “falls far short of what we need” by being overly focused on direct action — “rappelling out of helicopters, kicking down doors, and capturing or killing bad guys.” While such strategy sometimes pays off with the elimination of individual enemy leaders such as Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, “making real progress, whether in Iraq or other locales, will require accomplishing much more difficult, less glamorous tasks such as establishing security, furthering economic and political development, and spreading the right information to win over the populace,” he said. Bias toward direct action Boot quoted two unnamed Special Forces officers — one a colonel, the other a general officer — who wrote him complaining of what they saw as SOCom’s bias toward direct action. That bias is so heavy, Boot said, that “it is doubtful any amount of outside pressure, even from this committee, will change the dominant mind-set very much, especially when the Office of the Secretary of Defense remains so fixated on such missions.” As a result, he said, there is “growing interest” in the Special Forces community in possibly creating a Joint Unconventional Warfare Command within SOCom, which would gather Special Forces, civil affairs and psychological operations units in an unconventional warfare equivalent to the existing Joint Special Operations Command. “This strikes me as a good idea,” Boot said. “But I would also urge the committee to consider going further and removing the unconventional warfare mission from SOCom altogether.” Former Special Forces officer and CIA operative Michael Vickers, now director of strategic studies at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, a Washington think tank, said he thinks an unconventional warfare command within SOCom is a good idea. However, he warned, this could “tie up scarce [special operations forces] human capital in additional headquarters” and duplicate functions of SOCom’s newly established Center for Special Operations, which has the mission to plan, support and execute special operations.
 
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mough    RE:Unconventional warfare v. direct action. - mough   7/24/2006 8:25:29 AM
What kind of missions will SEALs get, if this happens? Also, if this happens, will the SEALs get many missions at all?<< you see, that's the problem, they are going to be stuck between a rock and a hard palce, the SEAL's were originally an offshoot idea of the UDT team's, then ironically the UDT's were submerged into the SEAL's, now, the SEAL's can't really go back to being UDT focused, as alotof that mission profile has been taken by the Navy EOD team's, they can't really take on the deep recce mission's, as I have a feeling that is what MARSOC is going to be doing, plus the Marines are better at it, so that just leaves the SEAL's to get back to what they were originally for, a more focused take on amphibious and literal warfare, less on trying to do every mission that it take's 3-4 other Army unit's to do, less DA mission's on land, less mountain warfare, less CPO duties on land ect, there are only 2000 active duty SEAL's, and believeme they would have plentyto do with out going into the mountains after people, by just focusing on what they are good at, the SEAL's have a saying, 1 foot in the water, you ask any SEAL. he'll tell you quiet honestly that they are ot any better then anyoneon land, but put them in the water, and they are in their element
 
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mough    RE:Unconventional warfare v. direct action. - Boondocks   7/24/2006 8:54:36 AM
Pass rates mean nothing...almost all SEALs who attend RIP make it through RIP, so comparing RIP to BUD/S isn't a similar comparison. I am going to back off my assesment that BUD/S is the toughest, because all true SOF training is extremely tough (who can honestly say who is the toughest, and by the same token, who can honestly say with certainty who is the best unit?)<< do you want an honest answear Gop?....CAG selection is "tougher" then BUD/S, now I know you don't like that, but that's the way it is, the failure rate for CAG is 85/95%,and that is made up of the vast majority of guy's coming from the Ranger's/SFG's/the odd SEAL, and the reasons are quiet a few, I'll run through them ok, 1, BUD/S is a knockdown dragging physical torture test, they try to break you, with running, and cold water drill's, boat evolution, ect and it work's alot, CAG selectionis a lot more "insidious", for one, there are no team 's in CAG selection, everything is on your own, you pass or fail, BUD/S has team drills, and that can take pressure off, CAG selection is as much about intelligence as physical ability, frequent physcological review's, having to solve mathematical problem's, ect after endurence test's, trust me, it make's it much more difficult 2, SEAL's think a bergan/ruck is a foreign make of car....they have no idea what tabbing/route marching is, they simply don't do it, there are stories, reliable one's of SEAL's about to be sent into the mountain's in Astan, having to be thought how to pack and use a bergan/ruck by Ranger's....that's is the miliatry equivilent of my 11 year old nephew teaching me to drive, now you might say what does that mater, well helo's can not get everywhere, and neither can vehicle's, so if your only option is to tab it, that mean's the SEAL's can't, on the other hand CAG selcetion never mind the actual unit emphasises it, although still less then a European unit whould, but anyway, a tab with bergan is a good test of charector, anybody can swimm for 10/15 Km's, there is not much stress on the body, try walking even slowly with 120lb's of kit for 5KM's 3, a personel beef of mine, most Tier 1 unit's use a sytem from the Brit's called a "Chinese parliament", it's basically mean's that when a mission is assigned, then every memebr of the unit carring it out has a say in the planning of it, from the FNG up, it's also a day 1 thing in CAG/ect selection's, to say the exchanges are robust is an understatement, even officer's can get given out to by privates ;), it also developes comaraderie, ie, rank is notso much importent as ability, so Officer's get called by their first name's/nicknames like everyone else, the SEAL on the other hand don't, it's sir/Mr to an officer, now I know this is a little strange to mention, but the formality of it is a little weird to other's, the only person I personelly would be that formal to, would be the unit Sergeant Major ;), thispart as nothing to do really with the debate, just a little bit on a cultural difference, of course the US military is very formal compared to our's or even the British now, that's alos one of theattraction for guy's to CAG, there is not much of it there.
 
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mough    RE:Unconventional warfare v. direct action. - Boondocks   7/24/2006 8:55:51 AM
Gop, if I missed omething in my last post just ask
 
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mough    RE:Unconventional warfare v. direct action. - Boondocks   7/24/2006 9:14:40 AM
I don't know how we got so off track here, but I don't understand how the SEALs could be considered such poor operators. They have probably the best fitness level in SOCOM (the average SF ODA scores around a 290 on the APFT, those numbers would be considered poor to average scores for a SEAL). They are very smart (over 25% have College Degrees, and not only that, but the ASVAB requirements are high and also things like dive physics weed out the 'dumber' students).<< there are different types of fitness, and is only part of it, 75%+ in CAG have degress, we have a guy with an aeronautical doctorate in our unit, does it help him shoot better?...no, does not mean much when the round's start coming. <> Yes they did, set a template for other's to follow <> unfortunatly it was a few more then one screw up, and yes they did, ably partnered with GROM <> yes they are, but there are only so many hour's in the Day, so their other skill's degrade, they are trying to do everything, you can just see the NAVSPECWAR officer's at the meeting's, when mission profiles are being handed out, we'll do that, we'll do that too, and that, they are terrified of other's getting mission's, not the guy's on the ground, but the ehad shed, because if mission profiles go over to other unit's, then funding does too, that's why MARSOC is a threat >>But all of the sudden, these guys suck. They will probably be kicked out of SOCOM. Something is broke. Their peers think they are substandard. What??? I admit they aren't the best unit for Land Warfare, but that was never their primary mission set. Their unit insignia is the Trident for a reason...they are Combat Swimmers, who are also good at Land Warfare. Sending these guys high up in the Mountains of Afghanistan with a 150lb ruck in Operation Anaconda is a very bad use for these guys...it is similar to tasking a SF ODA with infiltrating a exoctic terrorist held Island and performing SR. Different mission taskings...different missions (that is the way it should be). Their land warfare capability was designed much more along the DA lines, and much less along the UW lines<< they do not suck, they have just pushed into area's not best suited to them, who said kicked out of SOCCOM?...and their "budweiser" badge actually isa trident, eagle and pistol's, symbolising all 3 are's of activity ;),
 
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GOP    RE:Unconventional warfare v. direct action. - Boondocks   7/24/2006 10:05:32 AM
>>SEAL's think a bergan/ruck is a foreign make of car....they have no idea what tabbing/route marching is, they simply don't do it, there are stories, reliable one's of SEAL's about to be sent into the mountain's in Astan, having to be thought how to pack and use a bergan/ruck by Ranger's....that's is the miliatry equivilent of my 11 year old nephew teaching me to drive, now you might say what does that mater, well helo's can not get everywhere, and neither can vehicle's, so if your only option is to tab it, that mean's the SEAL's can't, on the other hand CAG selcetion never mind the actual unit emphasises it, although still less then a European unit whould, but anyway, a tab with bergan is a good test of charector, anybody can swimm for 10/15 Km's, there is not much stress on the body, try walking even slowly with 120lb's of kit for 5KM's<< True, but the CAG/SF/PJ's/whoever thinks that SCUBA gear is foreign. Other than that, I don't disagree, you definitely know what you are talking about.
 
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GOP    RE:Unconventional warfare v. direct action. - mough   7/24/2006 10:11:02 AM
>>you see, that's the problem, they are going to be stuck between a rock and a hard palce, the SEAL's were originally an offshoot idea of the UDT team's, then ironically the UDT's were submerged into the SEAL's, now, the SEAL's can't really go back to being UDT focused, as alotof that mission profile has been taken by the Navy EOD team's, they can't really take on the deep recce mission's, as I have a feeling that is what MARSOC is going to be doing, plus the Marines are better at it, so that just leaves the SEAL's to get back to what they were originally for, a more focused take on amphibious and literal warfare, less on trying to do every mission that it take's 3-4 other Army unit's to do, less DA mission's on land, less mountain warfare, less CPO duties on land ect, there are only 2000 active duty SEAL's, and believeme they would have plentyto do with out going into the mountains after people, by just focusing on what they are good at, the SEAL's have a saying, 1 foot in the water, you ask any SEAL. he'll tell you quiet honestly that they are ot any better then anyoneon land, but put them in the water, and they are in their element << This is fine with me, I love the water. My only question is this: Will there be any missions for the SEALs to perform? I am not talking about the highly publicised DA/Rambo stuff like CAG does, but will there be any work for SEALs? I don't want to train extremely hard for a unit that is on a fast decline. I don't want to become a SEAL (if I make it, of course), and watch the other SOCOM guys get to go to war while I am on base doing SOP's/Administrative work.
 
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mough    RE:Unconventional warfare v. direct action. - mough   7/24/2006 11:28:12 AM
True, but the CAG/SF/PJ's/whoever thinks that SCUBA gear is foreign.<< not quiet true....CAG have maritime team's, so do SF although they don't do as much, PJ's do alot of maritimework, although not as much in the dive area of thing's, but then SEAL's really don't either anymore, sure they get trained and all, but you could count on 1 hand how many time's they have operationally used dive gear in the last 10 year's
 
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mough    RE:Unconventional warfare v. direct action. - mough   7/24/2006 11:32:27 AM
This is fine with me, I love the water. My only question is this: Will there be any missions for the SEALs to perform? I am not talking about the highly publicised DA/Rambo stuff like CAG does, but will there be any work for SEALs? I don't want to train extremely hard for a unit that is on a fast decline. I don't want to become a SEAL (if I make it, of course), and watch the other SOCOM guys get to go to war while I am on base doing SOP's/Administrative work.<< plenty of work for everyone, there are ship's to board, beach's to be recced, swamp's to be traversed ;), enjoy, they will probably still get tasked with land warfare task's away from the water, don't sweat it, you'll have a exciting carreer :)
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Unconventional warfare v. direct action. - GOP   7/25/2006 2:42:42 PM
I guess, to get this thread sort of back on track, I should offer a general point: The SEALs have some problems in the institutional culture area that . . . let's say "prompts" . . . them towards missions they have no business doing. Type A personalities that are convinced they are the best of the best will naturally want to be in the thick of things, even when they do not have adequate training, doctrine, skills, etc., for where the thick of things are. Some of these guys eventually make it to decision making levels in SOCOM and hook their fellow SEALs up by lobbying for them to get high profile missions . . . that they don't have training, doctrine, skills, etc., to carry out. Down at the operator level, they then embarass themselves in front of other SOF personnel and acquire a reputation as the guys who can't get the job done on any number of levels. Transport that whole vicious cycle to ship board operations or something else SEALs have doctrine, training, skills, etc., to do and you don't tend to get the same end result. The problem is al Qaeda HVTs on boats are about as common as hens teeth in the GWOT -- Iraq having about as much coastline as you see driving from San Diego to LA (maybe less) and Afghanistan having about as much open water of any sort as Utah. Might not be the right war, but it's the only war the SEALs have . . . and so things continue to go south. Some specific points/rebuttals follow, as a sort of warning to the reader. >>Pass rates mean nothing...almost all SEALs who attend RIP make it through RIP, so comparing RIP to BUD/S isn't a similar comparison.<< How many SEALs attend RIP? RIP is a requirement to get into the 75th, not into Ranger school. I'm not familiar with SEALs serving as members of the 75th. Working with, attached back and forth, etc., perhaps, but not assigned to and consequently required to do RIP or ROP. >>They [SEALs]did a wonderful job in 'Nam (no one can deny this).<< Vietnam was a long time ago, and institutions evolve over time. Part of the problem with the current SEAL community is precisely how it evolved since Vietnam, what it emphasized and what it ignored or forgot, the new directions it evolved in, etc. The SEAL community back then was much smaller, much more focused on a mission they were specially trained and suited to perform, and much quieter. They also tended to be realistic about what missions they could do, since unrealistic expectations (then and now) get you killed and the learning curve for all SOF guys back in those days was very steep and very quick. >>All I know of is one screw up in Afghanistan (Takur Ghar), and this wasn't completely their fault...horrible intel played a role. They did a wonderful job on their OPLAT Ops at the start of OIF.<< Anaconda was one screw up, a media extravaganze sort and, much more importantly, killed a lot of good people. The SEAL SR team that go wiped out was another *huge* screw up in certain specific senses -- some of what happened was definitely not their fault, just bad luck and such, but there was some utter amateur hour jacka$$ angles to what happened. I know of some other cases that did not make the news, but did reinforce the "guys we probably don't want riding along" view other SOF operators have increasingly taken in regards to the SEALs, and the "call someone else" view higher headquarters has developed. >>I have also read an article by a top dog in NAVSPECWAR that states that SEALs are now undergoing much more Land warfare training in their current Pre-Deployment cycles than before.<< That's not a marker of success, that's an admission that they're dropping the ball and now trying to play catch up. In other words, rather than fix their doctrine on using SEALs for what SEALs do well, higher ups in NSW have decided they'll try to keep pushing SEALs into missions they are not well cut out for. Remember that one definition of insanity is repeatedly doing things that fail and expecting a different outcome on repetition. The bad part is they're getting dedicated guys -- SEALs and otherwise -- killed while bashing their head against this particular brick wall. >>But all of the sudden, these guys suck. They will probably be kicked out of SOCOM. Something is broke. Their peers think they are substandard. What???<< I think I outlined what I see as the basic pathology above. Strap a ranger to an SDV and you get the same outcome, more or less. The SEALs have a training pipeline that produces good maritime/littoral commandos -- it is not a training pipeline that produces good SF operators or CAG DA specialists or Ranger light infantry. But the powers that be in NSW want their littoral/maritime commandos to be able to do land ops just as well as the guys who focus primarily or exclusively on land, for prestige reasons and budget reasons and the like. And it just doesn't work. >>Sending these guys high up in the Mountains of Afghanistan with a 150lb
 
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mough    RE:Unconventional warfare v. direct action. - GOP   7/25/2006 3:21:04 PM
agreed HS, you'll know when MARSOC hit the big time...all the poser's will be pretending to be them :), it basically come's down to this GOP, Ranger's have their mission's, SF their's, CAG have their's, DEVGRU ditto, and now with MARSOC, what is really left on the plate for the SEAL's?......not saying their won't be a place for them on the roster, it's just I think maybe they won't be the on-call guy's they like to think they are anymore.
 
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