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Subject: Chinese/Russian Special Forces
RaptorZ    5/26/2006 10:36:34 AM
Here's another article of the war games "CounterTerrorism" set for this year. How worried are we (NATO) of these guys. I know there's not a whole lot of intel on China....but do you think that this worries our SF's guys? Lets face it I don't believe the Russian SF's are a joke..in fact I'll bet they can be every bit as good as the rest of the worlds.... ========= Russia-China special forces drill: U.S. officials see Taiwan invasion exercise East-Asia-Intel.com, May 24, 2006 Russian and Chinese special operations forces commandos will conduct a joint exercise near Novosibirsk in September, according to a Russian general. The war game counterterrorism drill will be held from Sept. 25 to Oct. 2. The joint exercise shows that both Moscow and Beijing are focusing on developing special forces troops as special weapons. China?s special forces is one of the areas Beijing has been focusing large numbers of resources as part of its military buildup, U.S. intelligence officials said. Special forces troops are expected to play a leading advance role in any Chinese operation to take Taiwan. Commandos would be deployed early in a conflict to target leaders and infrastructure along with large-scale missile strikes in what is called a decapitation strategy. The last Russian-Chinese joint military exercise was held last year. The U.S. military was excluded from observing the exercise, which was couched as an anti-terrorism exercise but in reality appeared as a practice for invading Taiwan. "The seven-day international exercise will be held to refine skills of conducting antiterrorism operations in joint groups of special forces," Lt. Gen Sergei Bunin, chief of staff of the Russian Interior Ministry Forces, told Interfax-Military News Agency Friday. About 1,000 Russian commandoes are to take part. "This exercise will see the participation of special forces of the Interior Ministry Force and the Interior Ministry of the Russian Federation," he said.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Chinese/Russian Special Forces   5/26/2006 11:55:44 AM
>>How worried are we (NATO) of these guys. I know there's not a whole lot of intel on China....but do you think that this worries our SF's guys?<< No. >>Lets face it I don't believe the Russian SF's are a joke..in fact I'll bet they can be every bit as good as the rest of the worlds....<< The Russians have a reputation for being hard as nails, but lacking in technical skills and ability (inadequate training and less than current training methods).
 
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GOP    RE:Chinese/Russian Special Forces - Horsesoldier   5/26/2006 12:56:39 PM
Horsesoldier, I agree that USASOC is probably not "worried" about Spetsnaz and the Chinese units (I believe many are classified)...but as far as Spetznaz lacking technical skills and ability, I think you are wrong. They have performed with a high level of skill in Chechynia, although their regular Army counterparts have not. In Afghanistan in the 80's, they pulled of numerous feats that showed their excellence (including killing the Afghani President, I believe...not sure his position). While Alpha team kind of screwed up the Moscow Theatre incident with the gas, I think that they still did a decent job... if they would have cleared it room for room, all the hostages would have been killed; it was the only way. There are also rumors that they have secretly managed to supply the Iraqi insurgents with Russian NVG's, etc (Although Syria and Iran might be the ones to blame). Their training is said to be extremely tough (maybe not very technical, but just plan tough)...and I certainly wouldn't want to be captured by these guys. Please, don't take this the wrong way...but I think the USASOC guys you talk to have fed you some bad information on alot of units. Probably because they view themselves (and SFOD-D) as superior to the other SOCOM/JSOC units along with other SOF units across the globe.
 
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GOP    RE:Chinese/Russian Special Forces   5/26/2006 1:06:59 PM
As far as China's SOF, there CT units (obviously used primarily for police purposes...I forget there name, but I think it is "Special Action Group" or I may be confusing that with something else...not sure) is said to be extremely good at room clearing (not quite Tier 1 level, but close), but not exactly sure as to how they perform at other jobs (SR, HALO, etc). Basically (we probably all know this), the Chinese SOF is primarily designed for going behind enemy lines and sabotaging their railway (etc), and just causing general chaos. A completely different mission set than US SOCOM forces for the most part.
 
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Yimmy    RE:Chinese/Russian Special Forces   5/26/2006 2:02:17 PM
"not sure) is said to be extremely good at room clearing (not quite Tier 1 level, but close)," Could you elaborate on that for me GOP. Room clearing is a very basic infantry skill, how do you define the tiers?
 
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Ehran    RE:Chinese/Russian Special Forces   5/26/2006 2:52:21 PM
how good the other sides sof guys are isn't likely a big concern for our sof guys. it's not very likely they would ever bump into each other if things did go hot after all.
 
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Yimmy    RE:Chinese/Russian Special Forces   5/26/2006 3:03:37 PM
I don't know, I think counter special forces missions are a mission of special forces.
 
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GOP    RE:Chinese/Russian Special Forces   5/26/2006 5:28:46 PM
>>"not sure) is said to be extremely good at room clearing (not quite Tier 1 level, but close)," Yimmy, Tier 1 units are top of the line SOF unit (mostly CT units), such as the SAS/SBS; CAG; DEVGRU; GIGN; KSK/GSG-9; Sayret Matkal; COMSUBIN; etc. The Chinese CT unit is supposedly very, very good at room clearing (DA would probably be more appropriate, I guess)...but somewhat below the Tier 1 units mentioned above. While room clearing is a very basic infantry skill, as you know the SOF units take it to a much higher level against much larger targets (such as the SAS embassy rescue in Tehran, the Sayret Matkal action against the hijacked airline in Uganda, etc).
 
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Yimmy    RE:Chinese/Russian Special Forces   5/26/2006 9:21:39 PM
"Yimmy, Tier 1 units are top of the line SOF unit (mostly CT units), such as the SAS/SBS; CAG; DEVGRU; GIGN; KSK/GSG-9; Sayret Matkal; COMSUBIN; etc. The Chinese CT unit is supposedly very, very good at room clearing (DA would probably be more appropriate, I guess)...but somewhat below the Tier 1 units mentioned above." I really can't agree with your reasoning GOP. You are speaking on far too linear a fasion. Room clearing is a very basic skill taught to anybody who goes through FIBUA/OBUA training, and although I am sure some units will get more practice and more opportunities for live fire kill houses than others, I think really it boils down to the individual. FIBUA is the bread and butter of some line regiments these days, while clearing a room is probably one of the more straight forward easier parts, getting across and into the building is the hard part.
 
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Yimmy    RE:Just as a side note   5/26/2006 9:24:58 PM
"as you know the SOF units take it to a much higher level against much larger targets" That is not the case either. SF will be more capable of less conventional targets, such as the SBS storming North Sea oil rigs, however in general they will deal with smaller targets, not larger. In direct actions, be they FIBUA based or other, you wont see SF operating in groups larger than platoons at most often. Larger FIBUA operations will be conducted by more conventional line regiments, while SF will perhaps go for the one small building where hostages may be located.
 
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GOP    RE:Chinese/Russian Special Forces   5/27/2006 11:51:35 AM
Yimmy, While room clearing is a basic skill, it is practiced and perfected much (much) more by SOF units. For example, it might take a regular infantry unit 8 seconds to clear a living room (for example). Whereas it would take a Tier 1 unit around 4.5 seconds. In that extra 3.5 seconds, alot can happen. Also, in a hostage rescue situation (which is what the Chinese SOF is trained for, they are an HRT team), SOF are much prefered because the decision making process is greatly honed and perfected to be made instantly ("This guy is the terrorist, bang bang"). FIBUA/MOUT is one thing, but Hostage Rescue is another. You honestly don't think that a line infantry unit is as good at room clearing as the SAS, for example, do you? You certainly can't have the 25th infantry division (light) performing the US Embassy op in Tehran, or the 10th mountain going in to take down the AL.
 
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