>>I understand, but they would definitely be prefered (and I am 90% sure they would get the task).<< You can be 100% sure they'd be tasked for the mission, and launched to carry it out. What is less certain is that the situation will wait for them to arrive. If DEVGRU is, say, twelve hours away, and, say, a regular SEAL platoon or a MEU(SOC) is one hour away there are plenty of scenarios where a hit conducted in one hour is better than a hit conducted in twelve hours. This might not be the preferred method, but "firstest with the mostest" is a pretty timeless military dictum that could easily apply in this sort of scenario. >>The fact is, that almost any SOCOM would be able to do the job with relative ease (if there wasn't some kind of bomb/time line/whatever), because as we know terrorists are very unprepared to go against SOF...Kind of hard to prepare when a door is kicked in, a flash grenade is thrown in, and the shooting starts and ends all in about 5 seconds. << A direct action mission to terminate a hostage situation like we're discussing is a tough nut to crack. The bad guys know they are a target, and so probably have prepared both conventional sorts of defenses (i.e. barricaded hard points and such) and unconventional ones like those you mentioned to complicate an assault. Casualties are likely in these sorts of scenarios, among the assaulters and hostages, even when dedicated CT assets like DEVGRU are employed. The policy makers deciding to use DEVGRU, CAG, the SAS' CT elements, etc., always have to balance the worst-case scenario for an assault versus the worst-case cost of simply containing the terrorists and trying to negotiate a surrender -- though this decision making is not always based purely on best/worst for the hostages (especially an issue when we're talking about a ship in international waters, etc.).

>>You can be 100% sure they'd be tasked for the mission, and launched to carry it out. What is less certain is that the situation will wait for them to arrive.<< And that's a good point. My department's SWAT team trains for hostage rescue at our local airport for the same reason. The nearest FBI regional SWAT team has to come from Denver, and the FBI Hostage Rescue Team has to come from Quantico. It's not our responsibility, it's just that we might be the only game in town.

>>And that's a good point. My department's SWAT team trains for hostage rescue at our local airport for the same reason. The nearest FBI regional SWAT team has to come from Denver, and the FBI Hostage Rescue Team has to come from Quantico. It's not our responsibility, it's just that we might be the only game in town.<< Sorry, kind of a off-topic question...but have you ever worked with FBI HRT? I have heard that they are one of the best forces at Hostage Rescue and Room Clearing in the world...and that they train with alot of tier 1 SOF units in the world (like Delta, Devrgu, and even the GIGN). I have also heard that they worked in Afghanistan with some of our SOCOM forces.

>>Sorry, kind of a off-topic question...but have you ever worked with FBI HRT?<< No. Our team did a helicopter insertion using their helicopter and pilots once, but that was it. Their helicopter was sitting at our airport while the HRT was back in the mountains for winter training, so we took got on our knees and begged for a ride. Actually, they were happy to oblige. Besides the pilots I only met one member of the HRT, the one who was acting as crew chief for our insertion. We've rubbed elbows with the Secret Service a few times. It's no secret that Cheney has a home nearby. I wouldn't really call it "working with" them though. On a protection detail the Secret Service is the inner perimeter, they surround "the principal," us local cops are on the outer perimeter or blocking traffic at intersections when the motorcade comes through.

Do you know how easy it is to get on board a liner that is holding the crew and passengers hostage? Boarding an ocean going liner for the purpose of hostage taking is a manpower intensive task that I don't think any terrorist with half a brain would try. All the ship's security team (3 fat guys, a chick and the stowaway from Romania) has to do is not get caught and the terrorists postion is dramatically compromised. And we're talking a very specific skill set here that a hostage taker would have to have and they would need at least 4 of those people to maintain an effective watch for SF threats. None of those skill sets exist in the Middle East. Or if they do those skillsets would not be worth Sh!te in 48 hours because of the low quality and fatigue. So no, I don't think you would need the ST6 replacement guys. The Navy's Development Group, right? Just as a matter of curiosity, why did they can ST6 anyway? And just before I get flamed for "generalizing" about the quality of seamanship in the middle east. All the good sailors are fishermen or Dow traders ( whose navigation skills border upon the occult at times) and none of them would know the word Decca or Sperry and besides, they are too busy trying to eek out a living as it is. Oh, I tell a lie, I met one good Suez pilot once. cheers w

It's an unusual scenario, I'd agree, but it has been done -- Achille Lauro and all that.

>>Sorry, kind of a off-topic question...but have you ever worked with FBI HRT? I have heard that they are one of the best forces at Hostage Rescue and Room Clearing in the world...and that they train with alot of tier 1 SOF units in the world (like Delta, Devrgu, and even the GIGN).<< When they were stood up (same time as Delta was formed, more or less) they were, for all intents and purposes, a civilian agency mirror of Delta which could do missions stateside where Delta operating would get in posse comitatus issues and such. My understanding is that they have not maintained the close relationship with Delta/CAG through the years (back in the early 80s they really were about interchangable), and have gone their own way in terms of recruiting procedures and training. They're still good -- I'd guess that if one had to draw up a list of good/bad, top to bottom, they'd be probably one notch below CAG, DEVGRU, SAS CRW guys etc (though there's some apples and oranges stuff here -- HRT does law enforcement DA, which is not the same as its military counterpart). >>I have also heard that they worked in Afghanistan with some of our SOCOM forces.<< The FBI (and a whole slew of other federal law enforcement agencies) have sent guys to Afghanistan and Iraq. Not sure if HRT has been there. Possibly, though I'd guess in observer status not operator status.

>>When they were stood up (same time as Delta was formed, more or less) they were, for all intents and purposes, a civilian agency mirror of Delta which could do missions stateside where Delta operating would get in posse comitatus issues and such<< I had no idea about that...I thought that the FBI always had a SWAT type element. >>My understanding is that they have not maintained the close relationship with Delta/CAG through the years (back in the early 80s they really were about interchangable), and have gone their own way in terms of recruiting procedures and training. They're still good -- I'd guess that if one had to draw up a list of good/bad, top to bottom, they'd be probably one notch below CAG, DEVGRU, SAS CRW guys etc (though there's some apples and oranges stuff here -- HRT does law enforcement DA, which is not the same as its military counterpart).<< What has slowed them down (or lowered their rank), in your opinion? Any idea what their selection process is like? Do they work conduct DA exercises on ships? Last question (sorry for all of them), how is military DA different from Police DA? For example, clearing a wharehouse (sp) in Baghdad is equal to clearing a Wharehouse (sp) in Washington DC, right? Military Direct Action units should train the same way as Law enforcement Direct Actions units, because the only difference is location (one will be in CONUS and one will be in the Middle East, for example)...I mean, a hijacked airliner at O'hare airport is the same as a hijacked airliner in Egypt...right?

"I mean, a hijacked airliner at O'hare airport is the same as a hijacked airliner in Egypt...right? " A hi jacked plane is a law enforcement operation, no matter it is in a US airport or a egyptian airport... But cleaning a warhouse in DC is not the same than cleaning a warehouse in Baghdad... Not the same context, not the same rules of engagement. A group like GIGN for example is able to do police ops as well as military ops, as Gendarmerie is a military corp with law enforcement purpose. The majority of their missions is counter terrorism and law enforcement like SWAT, but they can be used along with military SOF in overseas theaters. This is the particularity of GIGN to be the best in avoiding causaulties, even for the bad guys, they'll try to not kill them, just neutralize them. But they can also receive the order to kill them all, because their are not only a law enforcement unit, but also a military tool. I guess that military units are able to operate in hostile zone, and to control all the parameters of a unsecured area, while a police special unit, is more able to proportionate their response.

>>Last question (sorry for all of them), how is military DA different from Police DA?<< Police kill to protect the lives of citizens or fellow officers. There's a big difference between a criminal and an enemy combatant. In a police shooting there will be an investigation. They will try to account for ever shot fired. Except in very rare circumstances collateral damage is always a no-no; you don't kill a few non-combatants for the greater good. You don't frag a room before entering. A lot of times you can't even throw a flashbang unless you can see where it's going to land. You don't want to save your hostage by burning her face. It's usually, but not always, less dynamic. You might probe to contact slowly, using mirrors to peek around corners and under doors. What would be the support element for a military raid might contain machine guns, rockets, grenade launchers etc. In a police raid it's going to be the sharpshooter,longrifle, precision marksman, whatever, ad nauseum, just don't your dare say sniper, element. It looks like military operations are starting to resemble police operations more and more. Evidently the world is starting to expect the same sort of ROE from the military that the police would use.