SEALS vs. USMC FORCE RECON

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SCCOMarine GOP 4/25/2007 12:33:52 PM

SCCO, FAST did not accompany the SEALs onto the OPLAT ops. I'm calling bullshit on the whole "requested by SEALs" thing...the SEALs had an excellent working relationship with GROM (who they shared a base with in Afghanistan), and the RM...so it is obvious why those units were chosen to work together on the op. I'm not calling you a liar at all, but I am saying that the FAST commander either misunderstood the facts or gave you false info.

Your wrong! They did accompany the SEALs in the raid. One 16 man squad assaulted the facility w/ the SEALs, they acted as the SEALs Trailer Plt.

If you don’t know what a trailer plt is, in the dynamics of room clearing moving fr/ Rm to Rm, hall to hall, floor to floor as the assault force pushes forward they’re vulnerable to counter attacks in their rear and flanks, hence a trailer team.

1 Squad acted as Trailer plt and the other 2 Squads remained behind staged on the ship as a reserve force that moved in a few hrs after the assault to relieve the SEALs and link up w/ the other squad.

Its hard to still find any info on this but the excerpt of the article I gave is a direct quote fr/ the Captain of the Ship that was used to stage the assault. He explains who was used in the assault b/c they launched off his ship!

This is the Article:"New high tech, high-speed ship saw action in Iraq War". Read it for yourself.

This was his Quote:"The Joint Venture did much more than just ferry supplies back and forth in the Persian Gulf during Iraqi Freedom. She also took part in her first combat operations, serving as a special operations “mothership.” Details of this action were recently written up in Marine Corps Times. Joint Venture deployed Navy SEALs and U.S. Marine Corps Fleet Anti-terrorism Security Teams (FAST) in Mark V craft and Rigid Inflatable Boats. The SEALs and Marines seized two major offshore oil terminals at the entrance to the Iraqi port of Umm Qasr. Navy Captain Phil Beierl told Marine Corps Times, “For the first few hours of the war, we were the most forward ship in the U.S. Navy.” "

“QUOTE”-“UNQUOTE”

Like I said earlier I was there, in Bahrain, when they left and when they got back I know what the situation was.

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SCCOMarine GOP 4/25/2007 12:59:41 PM

Also, it is completely true that FAST works together with DEVGRU, but DEVGRU are the attackers and FAST are the defenders obviously...I wouldn't be bragging about that either, I wouldn't want my unit to be known as DEVGRU's bitch.

What are you talking about? Nobody's being used as anybody's Bitch. Each is doing their jobs, DEVGRU acts as the aggressor b/c thats their job. FAST acts as the Defender b/c thats their Job.

During these force on force exercises its more than just shooting, DG is actively trying to engage their target using recon and surveillance to gather intel b4 striking. FAST uses counter surveillance and aggressive patrolling to try and predict DG's next move and Modus Operandi for their target, and to engage it B4 the strike.

They're 2 of the best at what they do(Counter-Terror Vs Anti-Terror) constantly sharpening their skills against each other, so what are you talking about.

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SCCOMarine Horse 4/25/2007 1:11:17 PM

Hey, let's be fair here, right. If I want to hear how the USMC is the double super coollest most e-light fighting force *ever* . . . I know who to ask. If I want objective information about the Corps, I'll see what BadNews has to say.

OK Horse, where did I stretch the truth, where did I expand the story. Read thru my posts and point out where I embellished. Point out where I said FAST is a super unit, a SOF unit, or any other bullshit. I've been arguing the exact opposite. I've said they have an offensive capability, its at the discretion of the T-Comm.

The truth is that B-N prefers not to argue w/ the ppl on this site as long as his general point gets across.

THATS NOT ME! I'm going to argue every point and I don't care how long it takes for you to get it!

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SCCOMarine Horse 4/25/2007 1:31:56 PM

To be clear what security means when your talking about FAST, they’re not security guards.

If you go to a Nuclear Power plant in the US, there are security teams who are gate guards, post/watchstanders, etc. Then there’s a special team, usually ex-SOF, who are on call to react only in extreme cases or to deter terrorist threats/attacks.

That’s what FAST Team is for the DOD, ANTI-Terror, deployable world wide in 6hrs or less.

So will I beat a dead HORSE by emphasizing they’re a world class Anti-Terror security unit, only if it means getting my point across.

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SCCOMarine 4/25/2007 2:40:25 PM

Also I mentioned FAST to Colts b/c he can join FAST straight out of BC and get some 1^st class training and real world deployment time as a Jr Marine. The topic was if he didn’t make a particular services SOF, this opportunity is something he couldn’t get if he went to the other services and tried out for their SOF and didn’t make.

But if he didn’t make FR there’s a whole list of jobs he could do in the Corps that could provide some action and good training. That was the whole point.

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dirtykraut 4/25/2007 9:42:37 PM

But if he didn’t make FR there’s a whole list of jobs he could do in the Corps that could provide some action and good training. That was the whole point.

And you have made your point well. However, to be fair to the other guys, we have all misinterperated things people have said on these forums. I know I have. I think SCCO, people are replying more to your past comments, as many people have made up their mind about you. In many people's eyes, you are a USMC fanboy who has tried to advertise that the Marines are the very best. However, I would chalk it up to being a Marine. I never understood why people get upset when Marines say they are the best. If one was confident in his own strengths, than such a comment wouldn't bother him. Marines are taught that they are the best, and throughout their careers they think they are the best. And I applaud it. Because, even though I do not believe they are the "best" (such a general word), the very fact that they believe they are the best makes them one of the best in the dirty business of warfare.

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GOP 4/25/2007 11:10:22 PM

Exactly. They are primarily a top notch anti-terror security force, not door kickers. The guys even say that at the top of the article.

Do me a favor? Go back and count how many times I’ve said that! Count how many times I’ve said they are defensive in nature in this thread, although they have an offensive capability that is at the T-Comms discretion to use.

Then count the times when its supposed that I’ve said the opposite. The problem is you ppl get so charged up to try and prove me wrong you don’t get the my story right!

You have also said that they are experts in CQB (or something similar). I'm not really arguing with you as much as defining their primary role, so no need to get all defensive man.

As far as the two OPLATs, I was wrong. I admit it. Everything before that article (every single source I read) did not mention FAST whatsoever, only GROM and the RM. What is the source of that article? Heck, not even the SEALs quoted in Dick Couch's "Down Range" book mentioned FAST, only GROM and the RM.

I obviously got carried away with the whole "FAST is DEVGRU's bitch" thing, so I apologize for that. However, I do not think that FAST is much of a match for DEVGRU or CAG in the offensive (DEVGRU/CAG) vs. defensive (FAST) scenario. Not only is DEVGRU made up of the best SEALs in the Teams, with the latest and greatest weapons and tactics, but they would also have speed, suprise, and violence of action on their side.

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SCCOMarine 4/26/2007 5:15:49 PM

No need for apology, but in my illustration I was not trying to equivalate FAST to DEVGRU. I was trying to make it clear that their force on force exercises are not Team A against a scrub team.

You have one of the best Counter-Terrorism Teams doing their job, acting as terrorist. Probing, surveying, and gathering intel on a target that is guarded by one of the best Anti-Terror security units, who’s job is to counter those maneuvers to protect the target area. But don't confuse them for a security force.

It’s a convenient marriage the level of skill each unit enhances the other. DevGru’s not wasting practicing they’re trade against some base security unit, but against a unit trained specifically in deterring those types of activities. Vice Versa FAST practices getting probe, threatened, and attack by one of the best in the world.

That’s not making them equals it just reflects on the relationship. FAST is no where near DG’s individual level. FAST has a lot of Jr Marines, but JM’s very skilled in CQB and countering a lot of similar tactics used by units around the world. Practicing against FAST challenges DG’s, planning, processing, and execution cycle to act as terrorists well beyond what they'll ever see in the field and Vice Versa, which is the whole point.

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SCCOMarine 4/26/2007 5:39:59 PM

One more thing. You can’t go thinking that b/c X unit is stacked like so than Y unit is no match. And I’m not particularly referring to this DG/FAST convo. I’m talking in general.

W/that type of thinking it bars you from seeing any potential, whether threat or friendly unit capability. As a threat it’s a dangerous mentality that has gotten a lot of men killed and a lot of units humbled.

What is a healthier mindset is how well do they do whatever it is that they do and how will it help or hinder me.

For example underestimating the street tactics of Somali fighters or the resistance at Patilla Field.

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SCCOMarine 4/26/2007 5:46:17 PM

So yes I know and understand clearly that FAST does not stack up to DG, but its not designed to.

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SCCOMarine 4/26/2007 7:04:57 PM

I understand your point completely, but the reason I come off sounding like a USMC fanboy is not b/c I am. Its b/c I’m constantly forced to defend a position.

For example, B4 this thread some ppl may have heard of FAST Co, most haven’t, and thought FAST were some regular security force or gate guards, but how many knew that they deployed worldwide in 6hrs or less or that they have deployed to almost every terror attack against the US since ’88 or that their very first school is MC CQB school or whatever.

But when I say these things some how its perceived as I’m comparing them to a SOF or some other Bull. When I defended and explained their capabilities, it was perceived as expanding a myth.

Most of the time it’s a lose/lose for me unless I stick to my guns and keep sounding like a cheerleader, then some of my points begin to stick. But its not the truth, I’m not a cheerleader. I’m the first one to talk about the problems of the Corps, read about ANGLICO or the Recon Community, but there’s no one to relate so it doesn’t happen often.

The problem is that most ppl don’t know or understand what the Corps is or does, that leaves me in the position of spokeman.

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TRex 4/26/2007 9:22:17 PM

I would like ask somewhat of a rhetorical question.

Why are we arguing about this shit?

Is it not enough to know that everyone does THEIR specific job well enough to complete the mission and protect the guy next to him?

Why do we need to argue about who is the best?

Either the guys a SEAL Master Chief or a Force Recon Master Guns, they both would kick our ass's just as soundly.

This argument is pretty much pointless.

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GOP 4/26/2007 11:43:36 PM

I would like ask somewhat of a rhetorical question.

Why are we arguing about this shit?

Is it not enough to know that everyone does THEIR specific job well enough to complete the mission and protect the guy next to him?

Why do we need to argue about who is the best?

Either the guys a SEAL Master Chief or a Force Recon Master Guns, they both would kick our ass's just as soundly.

This argument is pretty much pointless.

We are just challenging each others opinions and views. Heck, almost all of us here are regulars and we have discussed ever normal topic known to man, so things like this is good because it gives us a chance to discuss something.

We aren't arguing over who is better, by the way.

Colt, man if I could join the military and didn't want to be a SEAL, then I'd go USMC S/S all the way. There are just endless options that are awesome in the US military, here is what I'd look into:

USMC --> Infantry --> FR or S/S (FAST has me intrigued though) -->Det 1.

Navy --> SEAL --> DEVGRU

Army --> 82nd AB --> Ranger or SF or CAG (If only I knew more about the Activity, but don't give me any info in you know it for OPSEC reasons).

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SCCOMarine 4/27/2007 4:12:32 PM

I would like ask somewhat of a rhetorical question.

Why are we arguing about this shit?

Is it not enough to know that everyone does THEIR specific job well enough to complete the mission and protect the guy next to him?

Why do we need to argue about who is the best?

Either the guys a SEAL Master Chief or a Force Recon Master Guns, they both would kick our ass's just as soundly.

This argument is pretty much pointless.

That wasn't the point I was trying to make. The point I was trying to make was the danger of having the mentality that b/c X-unit is stacked then missions and operations are in the bag and the only way they could be challenged is if going against such&such similarly stacked unit.

I'm not trying to sound preachy just making the point that some of the best trained units in the world have, in the past, gotten Mopped by a little 3rd world ingenuity and motivativation.

Often times the deciding factor isn't the superior training and gizmos or ingenuity and moto, but just how they match up. Who capitalizes on their strengths and the other guys weaknesses.

My point, which I believe he got, was not to do a who's better but to establish the validity of why those 2 units go force on force, b/c of their VS' match up. And not to try evaluate the match up as 2 similarly trained CT units going head to head.

AT is less of a Finesse operation, not requiring the yrs of experience needed for CT. AT doesn't rely as heavy on exp', it relies more on motivation, aggresive actions, and discipline. So the point is FAST is designed to do exactly what they do(AT), and they happen to match well as an OPFOR for a very exp'd CT force. Not have mentality of b/c their not trained as a CT Unit then DG obviously has their way w/them.

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DJones 4/29/2007 11:08:58 PM

hey man, im goin to usmc bootcamp july 21, and i was in the same position u were. i wanted to do something extreme and make a difference, not some fuckin desk job. I spent a year researching all branches except the national guard, and i decided on the marines. Like the other guys said, if u dont make SF in marines or army, then the fall back is being a ranger or part of a MEU team who both work hand in hand with specops. i chose marines because the basic training is longer and more intense than army basic, but making recon is incredibly hard as well as ranger school. im not a gunho marine guy, i just look at the facts n shit. read some books and get a good insight to both branches. the army gives you an enlistmant bonus, the marines gave me a red tshirt. the army tends to get whoever they can, but the marines are more selective. also take a practice asvab test or the real thing if you can, because both branches require a certain score for SF. either way, make the decision yourself, dont go one way because someone insisted on it. take the time to research both and spend time thinkin bout it

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