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Subject: SEALS vs. USMC FORCE RECON
colts    4/17/2006 3:42:16 AM
I really want to join the military although I am not sure which brance I want to go to. I want to go behind enemy lines and get "down and dirty" so to speak. I want the most action I can get, and not just recon, I want to shoot, fight, I REALLY want combat. I want HALO jumps, scuba training, I want it all. Which branch would be the best for me. I want the hardest training, best training i can get.

P.S. I also heard that navy boot camp and army boot camp is a bunch of bull and for in pussies and do not want to be a part of that. Is the CORE still as bad ass as always?
 
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mough       4/16/2007 7:22:35 PM
BTW, the only HALO combat jump since the GWOT by US forces has been by the Marines...not SEAL's
 
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GOP       4/16/2007 10:04:02 PM







The SEALs and Recon are for the most part equal. 



Really? So Recon will be doing 10 mile Combat swimmer operations and SEALs will be doing holed up in some hidesite for days reporting back to the USMC? Different mission tasks, different missions. Now, on the things like DA and such, they are probably equal. I tend to think the Teams are superior at HALO, but I'm sure that isn't always the case. Recon has an advantage I believe at Long Range Recce. Obviously the SEALs are superior at combat swimming. As far as OPLAT, they are probably equal, although I do think that the Teams have a wider variety of transportation options (due to the fact that they are combat swimmers). H2H is also probably a tossup, but I do really like the SEALs CQD system.

So,  basically:



 



Combat swimmer: SEAL



Recce: Recon



Others: Tossup.



 



 



All these things are variable lad, if a FR unit is doing more DA missions then a given SEAL platoon, ect ect, then the FR team would be considered "better", skill's get used or they get rusty, you can train and train all you want, but unless those skills are employed it's really a mute point,

BTW, you can't really be better at HALO jumping, your either good or dead...



I completely understand that, I'm completely unbiased now. Like I said, the SEALs are most likely better at combat swimming and Recon is most likely better at recon (go figure), but the others are a tossup and it depends on where the unit is in their workup and what types of missions they are getting while on deployment (you'd know better than me, but kicking in doors everyday in real ops would seem to make you better than just regular training exercises). You can't really compare H2H training I don't guess, as there are so many variables and such. The best H2H guy is going to be the guy who unholsters his Glock 19 the fastest (or whatever handgun is used) in my opinion.
 
Yeah, but I was referring to more accurate insertion, etc etc. I've heard (again, this could be 110% wrong and is completely debatable), that DEVGRU is probably the best US SOF unit at HALO...and I have heard great things about the Teams.
 
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GOP       4/16/2007 10:10:06 PM






The SEALs and Recon are for the most part equal. 



Really? So Recon will be doing 10 mile Combat swimmer operations and SEALs will be doing holed up in some hidesite for days reporting back to the USMC? Different mission tasks, different missions. Now, on the things like DA and such, they are probably equal. I tend to think the Teams are superior at HALO, but I'm sure that isn't always the case. Recon has an advantage I believe at Long Range Recce. Obviously the SEALs are superior at combat swimming. As far as OPLAT, they are probably equal, although I do think that the Teams have a wider variety of transportation options (due to the fact that they are combat swimmers). H2H is also probably a tossup, but I do really like the SEALs CQD system.

So,  basically:



 



Combat swimmer: SEAL



Recce: Recon



Others: Tossup.



 



 





As always, don't believe the proganda machine the SEALs have spewing books and whatnot out for the public.

 

The SEALs like to talk all about DA and such, but there are SEAL units that are as recce focused as Force Recon, do the same sort of mission sets with the same sort of skill level, and don't do door kicking as a job.

 

Likewise, just because their core selection pipeline is not identical to BUD/S, does not mean that there are not Force Recon units (and MAROPS ODAs for that matter) that swim just as well as the SEALs.  Both FR and the SEALs have hydrographic reconnaissance as one of their missions, for instance.

 

The basic reality is if you take an operator type guy (or unit) from any service, give them similar missions and similar training budgets, you get broadly similar skills levels. 

 

What do you mean don't buy into the hype? I'm not. There is much more hype (especially around the media/hollywood) surrounding SF than the Teams. I never said that SEALs were better than FR at DA, and I never said that FR was better than SEALs at DA, I said that it is a tossup.

I understand all of this, but I was making a generalization. Most SEAL platoons do not focus on RECCE, and most FR platoons do not focus on combat swimming. So, for the most part, those generalizations are true.
 
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GOP       4/16/2007 10:14:28 PM

BTW, the only HALO combat jump since the GWOT by US forces has been by the Marines...not SEAL's

I wouldn't doubt it at all...I never said SEALs were the only ones getting missions (Horsesoldier, if you mention "Sleep,Eat,Lift", you will be in E-danger ) Seriously though, can you speak of this or is this OPSEC? This had to be around the time of the invasion of A'Stan or Iraq, because if we were already in Iraq or A-Stan then they could simply have drove a Humvee onto the target.
 
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Horsesoldier       4/16/2007 11:06:32 PM



BTW, the only HALO combat jump since the GWOT by US forces has been by the Marines...not SEAL's


I wouldn't doubt it at all...I never said SEALs were the only ones getting missions (Horsesoldier, if you mention "Sleep,Eat,Lift", you will be in E-danger ) Seriously though, can you speak of this or is this OPSEC? This had to be around the time of the invasion of A'Stan or Iraq, because if we were already in Iraq or A-Stan then they could simply have drove a Humvee onto the target.


 
Sleep, Eat and Lift.  Otherwise it just spells "SEL"
 
A lot of it is like Mough suggested, situational and depending on the then and now mission -- if, say, a Force Recon unit is gearing up for a mission where they know they're going to be in the water a bunch, I'd put money on them being more on top of their game in that realm than an otherwise basically identical SEAL platoon that's spinning up for an Afghanistan rotation (or vice versa -- I'm not taking a swing at the SEALs).  A whole lot of skills in SOF units are highly perishable and have to be either constantly trained on, or intensely refreshed prior to deployment.
 
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J       4/16/2007 11:28:01 PM
Here's the story on that Marine combat jump in Iraq(if this is the same one that's being talked about)

freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1189078/posts?page=15

"....Theoretically, the jump was nothing different from the numerous training jumps the seasoned veterans have completed in their careers. What made this particular jump so special was the location and circumstances, claimed Master Sgt. Todd Smalenberg, primary jumpmaster, 1st Recon Bn.

"This is the first combat (high altitude high opening parachute drop) in the history of the Marine Corps," said Smalenberg.

When the Marine Corps first implemented the parachute insertion program, the purpose was the clandestine insertion of troops to prevent enemy counter movement.

The reasoning behind the July 23 mission was along similar lines, according to Maj. Douglas B. Davis, Hercules aircraft commander, Marine Aerial Refueler Transport Squadron 234, Marine Aircraft Group 16, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing. Davis was in charge of the Hercules aircraft that delivered the group of six pathfinders to their destination.

"We were called in for this mission because the ground inserts were attracting a lot of attention and taking a lot of fire," the 36-year-old, McAllen, Texas native said. "They wanted to go in by parachute in order to avoid detection."

Although the historical implications of the drop were important, the Marines had an important mission to complete, said Smalenberg.

"We did an infiltration into an objective area to conduct an initial internal guidance of two CH-46E (Sea Knights)," the 39-year-old Oscoda, Mich., native explained of his team's mission. "We were to all insert clandestinely to the area to conduct counter (improvised explosive devices) ambushes."

IED attacks on convoys and ground patrols are one of the problems coalition forces are facing in the ongoing struggle to secure and stabilize Iraq. This mission is one of many that are being used to counter this threat, Smalenberg mentioned.

Overall, the mission was considered a success by those involved, claimed 1st Lt. Ken M. Karcher, airborne direct air support center, Marine Air Support Squadron 1, 3rd MAW, who relayed information for the recon teams once they hit the ground.

"It was a pretty simple mission and it went over pretty well," the 26-year-old Raleigh, N.C., native said. "It was very well coordinated by the ground unit."

"They went in, they were blacked out and we left," he added. "They didn't have enemy contact when they hit the ground. To me, that's success."

The jump was something the enemy might not have expected, claimed Smalenberg, but the group took extra precautions in the choice of their jump by opting for the high opening.

"The reason we chose to do a HAHO vice a (high altitude low opening) jump was the stand off distance the aircraft would be from the drop zone as well as the noise of the parachutes opening at 10 thousand feet vice four thousand feet is not even close," he explained. "The sound of a parachute opening at four thousand feet is quite distinct, but there is no noise of a parachute opening at 10 thousand feet......"


Full article at the URL.


BTW, the only HALO combat jump since the GWOT by US forces has been by the Marines...not SEAL's


I wouldn't doubt it at all...I never said SEALs were the only ones getting missions (Horsesoldier, if you mention "Sleep,Eat,Lift", you will be in E-danger ) Seriously though, can you speak of this or is this OPSEC? This had to be around the time of the invasion of A'Stan or Iraq, because if we were already in Iraq or A-Stan then they could simply have drove a Humvee onto the target.



 
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GOP       4/16/2007 11:49:18 PM

Here's the story on that Marine combat jump in Iraq(if this is the same one that's being talked about)

freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1189078/posts?page=15

"....Theoretically, the jump was nothing
different from the numerous training jumps the seasoned veterans have
completed in their careers. What made this particular jump so special
was the location and circumstances, claimed Master Sgt. Todd
Smalenberg, primary jumpmaster, 1st Recon Bn.


"This is the first combat (high altitude high opening parachute drop) in the history of the Marine Corps," said Smalenberg.


When
the Marine Corps first implemented the parachute insertion program, the
purpose was the clandestine insertion of troops to prevent enemy
counter movement.


The reasoning behind the July 23
mission was along similar lines, according to Maj. Douglas B. Davis,
Hercules aircraft commander, Marine Aerial Refueler Transport Squadron
234, Marine Aircraft Group 16, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing. Davis was in
charge of the Hercules aircraft that delivered the group of six
pathfinders to their destination.


"We were called in
for this mission because the ground inserts were attracting a lot of
attention and taking a lot of fire," the 36-year-old, McAllen, Texas
native said. "They wanted to go in by parachute in order to avoid
detection."


Although the historical implications of
the drop were important, the Marines had an important mission to
complete, said Smalenberg.


"We did an infiltration
into an objective area to conduct an initial internal guidance of two
CH-46E (Sea Knights)," the 39-year-old Oscoda, Mich., native explained
of his team's mission. "We were to all insert clandestinely to the area
to conduct counter (improvised explosive devices) ambushes."


IED
attacks on convoys and ground patrols are one of the problems coalition
forces are facing in the ongoing struggle to secure and stabilize Iraq.
This mission is one of many that are being used to counter this threat,
Smalenberg mentioned.


Overall, the mission was
considered a success by those involved, claimed 1st Lt. Ken M. Karcher,
airborne direct air support center, Marine Air Support Squadron 1, 3rd
MAW, who relayed information for the recon teams once they hit the
ground.


"It was a pretty simple mission and it went
over pretty well," the 26-year-old Raleigh, N.C., native said. "It was
very well coordinated by the ground unit."


"They went
in, they were blacked out and we left," he added. "They didn't have
enemy contact when they hit the ground. To me, that's success."


The
jump was something the enemy might not have expected, claimed
Smalenberg, but the group took extra precautions in the choice of their
jump by opting for the high opening.


"The reason we
chose to do a HAHO vice a (high altitude low opening) jump was the
stand off distance the aircraft would be from the drop zone as well as
the noise of the parachutes opening at 10 thousand feet vice four
thousand feet is not even close," he explained. "The sound of a
parachute opening at four thousand feet is quite distinct, but there is
no noise of a parachute opening at 10 thousand feet......"


Full article at the URL.






BTW, the only HALO combat jump since the GWOT by US forces has been by the Marines...not SEAL's



I wouldn't doubt it at all...I never said SEALs were the only ones getting missions (Horsesoldier, if you mention "Sleep,Eat,Lift", you will be in E-danger ) Seriously though, can you speak of this or is this OPSEC? This had to be around the time of the invasion of A'Stan or Iraq, because if we were already in Iraq or A-Stan then they could simply have drove a Humvee onto the target.






They HALO'd in to conduct Anti-IED ops? Jesus Christ, that is ridiculous. Why not just drive a few klicks away from the objective and sneak up to their ambush site on foot? That seems to me to be a overcomplicated op, but if it worked, I have nothing against it.
 
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GOP       4/17/2007 12:00:39 AM






BTW, the only HALO combat jump since the GWOT by US forces has been by the Marines...not SEAL's



I wouldn't doubt it at all...I never said SEALs were the only ones getting missions (Horsesoldier, if you mention "Sleep,Eat,Lift", you will be in E-danger ) Seriously though, can you speak of this or is this OPSEC? This had to be around the time of the invasion of A'Stan or Iraq, because if we were already in Iraq or A-Stan then they could simply have drove a Humvee onto the target.



 

Sleep, Eat and Lift.  Otherwise it just spells "SEL"

 

A lot of it is like Mough suggested, situational and depending on the then and now mission -- if, say, a Force Recon unit is gearing up for a mission where they know they're going to be in the water a bunch, I'd put money on them being more on top of their game in that realm than an otherwise basically identical SEAL platoon that's spinning up for an Afghanistan rotation (or vice versa -- I'm not taking a swing at the SEALs).  A whole lot of skills in SOF units are highly perishable and have to be either constantly trained on, or intensely refreshed prior to deployment.



I agree with you 100% here. On a sidenote, are combat swimmer ops very frequent? You never hear about them, maybe because they don't have the "CDI" factor like DA ops, maybe because they don's happen. Not sure.
 
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J       4/17/2007 12:03:19 AM
>They HALO'd in to conduct Anti-IED ops? Jesus Christ, that is ridiculous. Why not just drive a few klicks away from the objective and sneak up to their ambush site on foot? That seems to me to be a overcomplicated op, but if it worked, I have nothing against it.<

Well, general, maybe you should go tell 'em how it's done. Like he said: ""We were called in for this mission because the ground inserts were attracting a lot of attention and taking a lot of fire,"
 
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Yimmy       4/17/2007 8:22:31 AM


"We did an infiltration
into an objective area to conduct an initial internal guidance of two
CH-46E (Sea Knights)," the 39-year-old Oscoda, Mich., native explained
of his team's mission. "We were to all insert clandestinely to the area
to conduct counter (improvised explosive devices) ambushes."


Given that this was just a 6 man recce patrol, (which is really too small to conduct a successful ambush on their own), were there more men joining them from the Sea Knights, or was that part of the mission unrelated to their ambush attempt?
 
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mough       4/17/2007 8:52:06 PM
I actually made a big mistake, the Brit's have also conducted MFF drops, in A-stan.....whoops
 
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mough       4/17/2007 8:53:24 PM










BTW, the only HALO combat jump since the GWOT by US forces has been by the Marines...not SEAL's




I wouldn't doubt it at all...I never said SEALs were the only ones getting missions (Horsesoldier, if you mention "Sleep,Eat,Lift", you will be in E-danger ) Seriously though, can you speak of this or is this OPSEC? This had to be around the time of the invasion of A'Stan or Iraq, because if we were already in Iraq or A-Stan then they could simply have drove a Humvee onto the target.





 



Sleep, Eat and Lift.  Otherwise it just spells "SEL"



 



A lot of it is like Mough suggested, situational and depending on the then and now mission -- if, say, a Force Recon unit is gearing up for a mission where they know they're going to be in the water a bunch, I'd put money on them being more on top of their game in that realm than an otherwise basically identical SEAL platoon that's spinning up for an Afghanistan rotation (or vice versa -- I'm not taking a swing at the SEALs).  A whole lot of skills in SOF units are highly perishable and have to be either constantly trained on, or intensely refreshed prior to deployment.





I agree with you 100% here. On a sidenote, are combat swimmer ops very frequent? You never hear about them, maybe because they don't have the "CDI" factor like DA ops, maybe because they don's happen. Not sure.

CS operations have happened.
 
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SCCOMarine       4/18/2007 12:28:41 PM
I'm sure you've read already HS & GOP are right, but they are.  I told B4 though don't sign up for the Corps unless you first want to be a Marine b/c lets say you don't make FR your still in for a HARD *SS LIFE in the Corps, and you really have to want it.
 
But let me tell you of the Fun things you can do in the Corps that aren't FR
 
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GOP       4/18/2007 1:29:28 PM

>They HALO'd in to
conduct Anti-IED ops? Jesus Christ, that is ridiculous. Why not just
drive a few klicks away from the objective and sneak up to their ambush
site on foot? That seems to me to be a overcomplicated op, but if it
worked, I have nothing against it.<

Well, general, maybe you should go tell 'em how it's done. Like he said: ""We were called in for this mission because the ground inserts were attracting a lot of attention and taking a lot of fire,"
Don't be ridiculous. I'm obviously not a General...I'm a Colonel.
Mough, just rub the fact that SEALs aren't getting any HALO missions in my face, it's OK. I bet they've had more Women then the other units, and there sun glasses are so much cooler. The other units may take more missions and have more skills, but they will never look as cool because they just don't have the designer sun glasses. And I'd rather spend my time with a hot girl then cramped in some aircraft preparing for a HALO mission.
 
On a serious note, without going into any details, do CS ops happen often...and have any happened partaining to the GWOT?
 
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SCCOMarine       4/18/2007 1:51:30 PM
These are a few of the fun jobs you can do in the Corps besides FR.

HET HumInt Exploitation Teams: Forward deployed 2-6 man teams that track, identify, and neutralize cells that conduct espionage, subversion, sabotage, and terrorism against US interest world wide.

RRT Radio Reconnaissance: 3-6 man teams that conduct both clandestine and covert Signals Intelligence collection world wide at a national and theater level. RRT’s are trained to the same levels, in everything, as Force Recon; and if you ask them they’ll say higher.

ANGLICO Air Naval Gunfire Liaison Interdiction Company: More than just Close Air Support experts, ANGLICO is the only unit in the DOD qualified to plan, execute, and control all forms of U.S. supporting arms fire for joint and combined forces worldwide. Trained to operate independently deep behind enemy lines in 3-6 man teams or attached to any SOF unit world wide.

FAST CO Fleet Anti-Terrorism Suppression Team: Similar to a very High Speed SWAT. Experts in CQB, they are deployable World Wide to any Terrorist threat in less than 6hrs. FAST can only be requested by Theater Comms thru Chief of Naval Ops or the Commandant. 

Presidential Security Teams: Small teams that secure Presidential Retreats and provide physical security for the Pres when he travels. 

Embassy Security: Small 6-18 man teams that provide physical security for Embassy Staff and Confidential/TS Documents in over 120 countries. Actually the 1st priority is the docs, the personnel are 2nd. They are led by SNCO’s, SSgt(E-6) or Gunny(E-7), not an Officer. They live in a Marine House, most are staffed w/ house servants and cooks. 

There are a few more fun jobs in the Corps but I can’t remember right now
 
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