>>GOP. The unfounded, hearsay, "hey i havent worked with SEALs but I heard this..." attitude againt the Teams that pervade this forum is the direct result of one thing...professional jealousy. End of story. You other knuckleheads want to run your suck...say it to a guy with a Trident, in person. That is all. << Hmmm, let's see -- have I personally worked with SEALs yet? No. Do I share an office with a number of 18-series personnel who have worked with SEALs as far back as the invasion of Panama? Yes. Do I frequently work with personnel from the 160th SOAR, AFSOC aircrews, and Special Tactics personnel, all of whom have worked with the SEALs? Yes. And is the one common denominator one hears about 99.5% of the time concerning the SEALs that people do not respect them, do not find them to be either "quiet" or "professionals" and would just as soon not have them in SOCOM at all if it were possible -- all based on firsthand experience? Yes. Sure, maybe it's "professional jealousy" but when the sentiment is so remarkably consistent both in terms of people holding it and in terms of people saying the exact same things (amateurish, more attitude than ability, prima donnas, etc.) I would venture to suspect that the simpler answer is not that there is a grand conspiracy fueled by jealousy to defame the SEALs but simply that there is more than a bit of truth to the assessment that if the SEALs were half as good as they think they are, they'd be at least twice as good as they actually are. In any case, GOP, entertain whatever opinion you want concerning the SEALs, and take whatever I have to say on the matter however you want to. But, if you make it onto a SEAL team, however, do bear in mind that people within the SOF community but outside the SEAL teams are generally going to look at you through the lens of the attitude I've presented and you're not going to give you a bit of respect until after you've demonstrated that you can be professionally competent and mature -- which is to say, after you've demonstrated that you are not like the SEALs they've dealt with in the past. Whether you like that idea or not, the truth of the matter is that that is how the vast majority of operators in the US military see things, so far as I can tell from working with large numbers of them. There's a reason for those attitudes concerning the SEALs and, with apologies to Stratbert's bold attempts to sooth wounded egos ("get into a fistfight with a SEAL, then tell me they're unprofessional" . . . um, fistfighting demonstrates a lack of professionalism, knuckleneck), it simply ain't jealousy . . .

I guess I've been lucky, the dozen guy's I did a little work with were ok....they did have the slight ego thing going on, but they were GTG but Horsesoldier, you could probably but alot of this SEAL's versus the rest of the sof community into the same cathagory as the same "distain" some have for the PJ's...ie the "shake and bake commando" epitaph?, or the rivelry between the SAS and SBS, they've said some not very pleasent thing's about each other, and the Brit SAS and the SASR, just pointing out examples were normally very compentent operators, start trash talking

I can see where this thread is going to go now, I won't post in it anymore, we're opening a can of worm's now :(

>>but Horsesoldier, you could probably but alot of this SEAL's versus the rest of the sof community into the same cathagory as the same "distain" some have for the PJ's...ie the "shake and bake commando" epitaph?, << Some of it could probably be chalked up to the general sort of inter-organization static one expects, but there's really a notable spike on the graph when it comes to SEALs. There's a level of consistency there that simply stands out dramatically.

>>In any case, GOP, entertain whatever opinion you want concerning the SEALs, and take whatever I have to say on the matter however you want to. But, if you make it onto a SEAL team, however, do bear in mind that people within the SOF community but outside the SEAL teams are generally going to look at you through the lens of the attitude I've presented and you're not going to give you a bit of respect until after you've demonstrated that you can be professionally competent and mature -- which is to say, after you've demonstrated that you are not like the SEALs they've dealt with in the past. Whether you like that idea or not, the truth of the matter is that that is how the vast majority of operators in the US military see things, so far as I can tell from working with large numbers of them. << Two things. 1) I respect all opinions here, including yours, Horsesoldier. I don't like this tough "Tell it to a guy with a trident stuff" (although I agree with stratbert), because I hate the big ego stuff like that. I don't want you to think that I don't respect your opinion just because you have a different view point different than mine. 2) I don't care what others think of me. I do not want to be a SEAL because of popularity...that is the last thing I want..so if the 18x/AFSOC/CAG/SOAR guys think I am a piece of crap just because I am a SEAL... without knowing me, how I operate, or what kind of guy I am, then they can have that immature opinion. Of course, I have a long way to go before I am a SEAL (and a whole lot of hard times ahead), but I have confidence that I will survive BUD/S and SQT and become a SEAL (I don't want to come across as some immature kid who doesn't realize just how tough it is and how far I have to go). I agree mough, this is ridiculous and we should stop. It is starting to turn kind of immature...and yes, this is coming from a 16 year old guy :). The bottom line is this: Generalizations aren't fair, especially when dealing with as high caliber of people that are in SOCOM. I am sure that there are excellent SEALs out there, just like there are excellent SF/AFSOC/SOAR/CAG/ETC operators.

Ok, I saw this "discussion" while going thru some stuff on this page and I have never seen the level of ignorance before that is demonstrated here.

Horsesoldier and Paratroop, are you two smoking something? The SEAL Teams are not just maritime commandos, there primary mission is Direct Action and they should be compared to the SBS, DevGru has a counterpart in the SBS as well, but the regular SBS squads are just like the teams. Also, what the f!*& are you talking about with our high attrition rate? We have lost very few guys, the most we have lost were in a helicopter shoot down, that is it, other than that we have taken amazingly low casualties.You say SEALs shot a couple of friendlies in a prison raid? Again, you are on crack, that never happened, you are getting that from a rumor mill or are mistaken about who did that. As for training-

BUD/S- 26 weeks, followed by 15 weeks of SQT, then Jump School. Then you go to your team and do a year and half work up, whose primary focus is Land Operations! Combat Diving is about 3 weeks of that work up. No one can touch us as far as Land Warfare Tactics go, the Aussie and Canuck SOF were even doing there tactics and patrols like us in Aghanistan. Sean Naylor and the rest of the Army cats thinking they have the total package deal are seriously mistaken, no one can do all the things we do as well as we do them except the SBS, that is it. Are the SAS, Delta, etc..better at some things than us? Yes, especially in the area of Long Range RECCE, but as far as MOUT (SOUC), CQC and Land Warfare Tactics, sorry, no one outside of Delta in the US is close. I have not worked with the SAS guys, have met and seen some via working with the SBS, but that is it. The Aussie SAS are better than the UK SAS from what I have seen and been told by other guys who have worked with both, just a side note for ya.I do know that no one comes close to the Aussies as far as RECCE goes. The SBS are great, hard and well trained, but they are the only guys I would put in the boat with us and they are better at some things and we are better at some things.

As for the SF Q course being as tough or tougher than BUD/S? Are you guys for real? Get a grip, you have a 3 week selection, I have seen it, a joke compared to even one week of BUD/S like "Hell Week". Then the rest of your Q course is training, not getting yelled and beaten, etc..your selection is over, now it is up to your skills and learning ability but your gut check phase is only 3 weeks! Stop comparing it, not even close! You have some great courses, good teachers and are awesome at FID but do not think that your selection or your tactics and Combat training even comes close to ours.

I am not sure where you guys get your info from, some of the comments are obviously just professional jealousy, no worries, I expect that from an some guys who would last maybe three weeks into BUD/S. .

The Brits used to be the best, hands down, they had N. Ireland to practice on and were cutting edge in the area of MOUT, we still share everything with them and they with us. We took there tactics and improved on them. I have seen the SF do CQC, it is scary and they are out of date on tactics, Delta is awesome at it, SF, not so much. Land Warfare Tactics? Go watch the East Coast Teams sometime practice there Fire and Movement Drills, I bet you a million dollars they will blow away anything the SF lads do or even most other SOF units. Overall, yes, the Brits have a better trained and lead military on the ground than us, but the SAS are still living off a legend, ask some of the SBS guys what they think of them after the Falklands or some other incidents.

While I understand the need to talk about stuff, maybe vent a little but at least do some research before you start talking and use your heads when making sweeping comments about stuff that didn't happen.

 

 

Ok, this goes to Horsesoldier directly, the ODA teams do not do as much DA as the SEAls do, they are awesome at FID not DA. The guys who complain about lack of professionalism among team guys tend to be the ones who equate a good shave and a haircut with being a good opertaor. In that respect, you are right, team guys due tend be a bit lacking in that, we also tend to get into more liberty incicdents, mea freaking culpa! That said, it has nothing to do with our operational ability, some of your comments are so far off it is laughable, I have worked alot with the SF guy, if you find an honest one they will answer that we are better at DA, that we are better at the range, etc..we have to do it all as well, we all get trained in Demo, CQC, VBSS, MOUT (SOUC), Mobility, etc....our Land Warfare tactics are in some ways a re-tread of the old ways, but they are better than anything out there right now. The SF lads do not do all these thing, they overspecialize, they tend to be way out of shape in comparison and also tend to concentrate more on teaching and being very good at one area. If you are saying that somehow we are unprofessional in an operational sense then ask the Brits or Aussies who they would rather work with, us or the SF/Rangers/Marines etc....I will bet my bottom dollar it will be us 7 times a week and twice on Sunday. The whole un-professional thing tends to stem from professional jealousy, our guys being very cocky (can't deny this and we are attempting to change this), and acting in what they consider an un-disciplined manner, ie; lacking shaves, long hair cuts, crisp uniforms, etc.....I will grant you that our young guys tend to be very cocky, it drives us nuts as well but the other stuff is typical big army stuff, they would rather look good for a parade ground than be good in the field and hence base all there opinions on that about other forces. The only thing I will give the Army SF over us is that there officers tend to be better than ours, they are better at FID and they are nowhere near as much of an off duty problem as our young guys can be, other than that I am sorry "Horsesoldier", you are wrong.

This thread had FINALLY died a natural death  .....and now you've done gone and resurected it.   

No!.....No!!.........NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!