jim it's been a while since i saw the news report but it was definitely an apache crew. the vehicles were impossible to id at least for me being just blobs on the thermal but i remember them as being identified as british warriors by the news cast. there certainly wasn't any hesitation or lack of enthusiasm in the 30-40 seconds of pit recordings that was played. still it was a decade ago and my memory isn't what it was.

thanks for the link shek. it's not that it looks like a vid game it's the crew's attitude and chatter after they hit the tracks that jarred so badly.

Ehran, Remember that it's not a video game. While we know the outcome of ODS, at the time, it wasn't a given that we were going to roll over Iraqi forces like a knife through butter. Thus, what you are hearing are soldiers reacting to a life or death situation punctuated by adrenaline - a situation where two men enter but only one comes out alive. Like AR, there's certainly a series of mistakes that led to the fratricide, any one of which if hadn't been made would have prevented the tragedy, but expecting polite tea time chatter in the heat of battle is something I don't find realistic.

I caught part of a "Military Channel" (the even more explosions version of the History Channel) and they had a show on called "Inside the Kill Box" covering part of the Gulf War. It covered an incident with the two Warrior IFV's. Per the program - It was an A-10 The radio chatter kind of odd - Comments like "this buds for you" as a missile hits one of the Warriors. The controller did call them off seconds after the 2nd warrior was destroyed. The pilot requested permission to RTB after learning it was a friendly fire incident and was told to stay on station.

J6P and Ehran, I've typed out some excerpts from LTC Dave Grossman's "On Killing." Hopefully, his work will help to demonstrate that what you have seen are typical psychological reactions to killing, to include the dehumanization as well as the immediate post-kill euphoria, as opposed to the being similar to the reaction of kids playing PS2 or XBox who approach the video game as a sport. [snip] Pages 107-112, "On Killing" Maximum range Our examination of the killing process at different points along the distance spectrum begins at maximum range. For our purposes “maximum range” is defined at a range at which the killer is unable to perceive his individual victims without using some form of mechanical assistance – binoculars, radar, periscope, remote TV camera, and so on. Gray states the matter clearly: “Many a pilot or artilleryman who has destroyed untold numbers of terrified noncombatants has never felt any need for repentance or regret.” And Dyer echoes and reinforces Gray when he notes that there has never been any difficulty in getting artillerymen, bomber crews, or naval personnel to kill:

Partly it is the same pressure that keeps machine gun crews firing – they are being observed by their fellows – but even more important is the intervention of distance and machinery between them and the enemy; they can pretend they are not killing human beings. On the whole, however, distance is a sufficient barrier: gunners fire at grid references they cannot see; submarine crews fire torpedoes at “ships” (and not, somehow, at the people in the ships); pilots launch their missiles at “targets.”

Long- range “Long range” is defined here as the range at which the average soldier may be able to see the enemy, but is unable to kill him without some form of special weaponry – sniper weapons, anti-armor missiles, or tank fire. Holmes tells of a WWI Australian sniper recalling how, after shooting a German observer, “a queer thrill shot through me, it was a different feeling to that which I had when I shot my first kangaroo when I was a boy. For an instant I felt sick and faint; but the feeling soon passed.” Here we begin to see some disturbance at the act of killing, but snipers doctrinally operate as teams, and like maximum-range killers they are protected by the same potent combination of group absolution, mechanical distance (the rifle scope), and physical distance. Mid-range “When soldiers do kill the enemy they appear to go through a series of emotional stages. The actual kill is usually described as being reflexive or automatic. Immediately after the kill the soldier goes through a period of euphoria and elation, which is usually followed by a period of guilt and remorse. The intensity and duration of those periods are closely related to distance. At midrange we see much of the euphoria stage. The future field marshal Slim wrote of experiencing this euphoria upon shooting a Turk in Mesopotamia in 1917. “I suppose it is brutal,” wrote Slim, “but I had a feeling of the most intense satisfaction as the wretched Turk went spinning down.” [snip] It is a fascinating book to read, and if you've got some spare time and are interested in the psychology of killing and it's costs, this is the book for you.

Thanks Shek. Amazon has it on the way.

Oh, thnaks! Like I don't already have too much to read now as it is!!!

Join the club - I've got about 20-25 books on the shelf waiting to be read.

Three Christian Activists Rescued in Iraq Mar 23 8:43 AM US/Eastern By BASSEM MROUE Associated Press Writer BAGHDAD, Iraq U.S. and British troops Thursday freed three Christian peace activists in rural Iraq without firing a shot, ending a four-month hostage drama in which an American among the group was shot to death and dumped on a Baghdad street. Maj. Gen. Rick Lynch, the U.S. military spokesman, said the hostages were being held by a "kidnapping cell," and the operation to free the captives was based on information from a man captured by U.S. forces only three hours earlier. No kidnappers were present when the troops broke into a house in western Baghdad. The captives' hands were tied, Lynch said. The Iraqi Interior Ministry said the captives were rescued northwest of Baghdad between the towns of Mishahda, 20 miles away from Baghdad, and the western suburb of Abu Ghraib, 12 miles away. British officials in Baghdad said those freed were Canadians James Loney, 41, and Harmeet Singh Sooden, 32, and Briton Norman Kember, 74. The men _ members of the Chicago-based Christian Peacemaker Teams _ were kidnapped Nov. 26 along with their American colleague, Tom Fox. The body of Fox, 54, of Clear Brook, Va., was found earlier this month. "We remember with tears Tom Fox," group co-director Doug Pritchard said. "We had longed for the day when all four men would be released together. Our gladness today is bittersweet by the fact that Tom is not alive to join his colleagues in the celebration." In London, British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said Kember was in "reasonable condition" in Baghdad's heavily fortified Green Zone. The two Canadians required hospital treatment, but he gave no further details. Straw also gave few details of the operation, saying only that it followed "weeks and weeks" of planning. British Prime Minister Tony Blair's office said he was delighted by the trio's release. "He is particularly pleased for those released and their families. He congratulates everyone involved in the operation to rescue the hostages," his office said in a statement. Loney's brother, Ed, told CBC television that his mother had spoken with James on the phone and he sounded "fantastic." "He's alert and he was asking how we were doing and said he was sorry for the whole situation," Ed Loney said. "My mom said, 'Don't worry about it _ just get home and we'll talk about all that stuff when you get here.'" The kidnapped men were shown as prisoners in several videos, the most recent a silent clip dated Feb. 28 in which Loney, Kember and Sooden appeared without Fox. Fox's body was found March 10 near a west Baghdad railway line with gunshot wounds to his head and chest. The previously unknown Swords of Righteousness Brigades claimed responsibility for the kidnappings. In Fox's hometown, his friends learned of the rescues on the television. "I think there's a bittersweet element to this in that yes, our friend Tom isn't coming home," said Anne Bacon, clerk of the Hopewell Centre Quaker meeting where Fox volunteered. "But we know Tom is with us and that Tom is overjoyed that these men will be reunited with their families." The Christian Peacemaker Teams said the activists went to Iraq "motivated by a passion for justice and peace." Group volunteers have been in Iraq since October 2002, investigating allegations of abuse against Iraqi detainees by coalition forces. Its teams promote peaceful solutions in conflict zones. "They knew that their only protection was in the power of the love of God and of their Iraqi and international co-workers," Pritchard said. He also called for coalition forces to leave the country. "We believe that the illegal occupation of Iraq by Multinational Forces is the root cause of the insecurity which led to this kidnapping and so much pain and suffering in Iraq," Pritchard said. Other Americans taken hostage in Iraq and killed in addition to Fox were Ronald Schulz, 40, an industrial electrician from Anchorage, Alaska; Jack Hensley, 48, a civil engineer from Marietta, Ga.; Eugene "Jack" Armstrong, 52, formerly of Hillsdale, Mich.; and Nicholas Berg, 26, a businessman from West Chester, Pa. Still missing is Jill Carroll, a freelance writer for The Christian Science Monitor who was kidnapped Jan. 7 in Baghdad. She has appeared in three videotapes delivered by her kidnappers to Arab satellite television stations. The last hostage to be freed in a military operation was Douglas Wood, an Australian rescued in west Baghdad by U.S. and Iraqi forces on June 15 after 47 days in captivity. ___

Here's an interesting dissertation that I came across yesterday. A long read, which I haven't completed, but very illuminating IMO. http://www.smallwarsjournal.com/documents/swjmag/v4/Shervington-Small%20Wars%20and%20Iraq.pdf