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Subject: Traditional SF-feeder units: Advantages and Disadvantages?
olive greens    2/27/2006 10:44:28 AM
I am thinking of various airborne units traditionally feeding into Army Special Forces (ex Paras into SAS, 82nd AA into Rangers and SF, Airborne Guards into Spetnaz etc). Some things I can rattle off... Advantages: a) Prepared to operate behind enemy lines b) Para qualified c) Uniform background improves unit cohesion Disadvantages: a) Too aggressive doctrine b) Conventional infantry "bad habits" inappropriate for SF work c) Invariably bring regimented life into SF Your thoughts?
 
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GOP    RE:Traditional SF-feeder units: Advantages and Disadvantages?   3/2/2006 1:51:18 PM
In my opinion, feeder unit's have nothing to do with it. The requirements are that you need to be physically prepared, mentally prepared (this is as important as the others), motivated, and being prepared to work hard and not quit. If you meet those requirements, they will teach you what you need to do. I say they will teach you what you need to do, well...not in the sense of regular infantry. They will teach you how to blow things up, shoot your weapons, maybe do combat diving, maybe Halo, some basic QDC tactics...outside of that, it is about initiative. That is the excellent thing about SOF...you are encouraged to think on your own when it comes to tactics. I was reading in Rogue Warrior where Rick Marcinko's ST2 platoon in Vietnam were constantly throwing the VC off by using initiative and brain power. One example is that they would infiltrate a VC area, use thick boots to give the VC a lead, take their boots off so the tracks would disappear, and place pressure plates in the middle of their boot tracks. Another example is that they would attack a enemy camp, kill the VC, boobytrap the VC bodies, burn their houses, blow up the bunkers (etc)...and then they would steal a cache of 7.62 ammo (obviously used by the VC), take it back to the Naval 'base', booby trap it so it would explose when the VC shot it, and placed it on VC controlled territory. I used those examples to say that they (SOF training instructors) will teach you what you need to know as far as tactics and weapons, but the rest will be your brain power and initiative.
 
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longrifle    RE:Traditional SF-feeder units: Advantages and Disadvantages?   3/2/2006 10:27:03 PM
I was not thinking of SEALs. The advantage in coming from an infantry background that I was thinking of was for Army SF in situations like the Vietnam era CIDG, Mobile Strike Forces, and Mobile Guerrilla Forces. These type operations were infantry meat and potatoes, they just had local troops making up the companies is all. Some OSS operations in WWII were more of an agent nature, liason with the Marquis etc. Many of the OSS troops hadn't come from infantry backgrounds, although the commander of OSS, Bill Donovan, was a Medal of Honor receipient from WWI.
 
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GOP    RE:Traditional SF-feeder units: Advantages and Disadvantages? - Longrifle   3/2/2006 10:55:26 PM
Sorry about that, I did not even read your first two posts. I think that if you make it through the SF/AFSOC/SEAL/Ranger/Whatever pipeline...then you are good enough for that unit...and all of these units have extremely good records.
 
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olive greens    RE:Traditional SF-feeder units: Advantages and Disadvantages?   3/3/2006 2:38:57 PM
>> In my opinion, feeder unit's have nothing to do with it. << To the contrary every single one of your later observations point back to this basic question... >> The requirements are that you need to be physically prepared, mentally prepared (this is as important as the others), motivated, and being prepared to work hard and not quit. << Physically prepared? Light Infantry level vs. Signals level vs. Wall Street corporate lawyer (or Needle St. banker or Moscow State prof) level... Mentally prepared? Ability to operate begind enemy lines (which scares the $#!T out of many men who will fight quite bravely on the front lines) vs. too aggressive doctrine (which many airborne troops delibrately inculcate to offset working behind enemy lines)... Motivated? Care to work with men of your own background vs. care to work with a unit that maximizes your own strengths? Work hard and not quit? Should special forces be made of only career professionals vs. taking in anyone who has special and needed characteristics? (Humor time: FDR complained OSS wasnt ruthless enough - they had only corporate lawyers, Churchill's SOE had English bankers {they make you wonder why Shakespeare had to invent a Ventian Shylock}!!!) >> If you meet those requirements, they will teach you what you need to do. << More practically: Should they pick a paratrooper they neednt teach how to maintain a rifle, or should they pick a former oilman who speaks Arabic like a Hajji Mustafa? >> I used those examples to say that they (SOF training instructors) will teach you what you need to know as far as tactics and weapons, but the rest will be your brain power and initiative. << Luck favors the prepared mind - thought this might be particularly interesting to you. It gives you a chance to maximize you chances at making it in. For me its just a fun topic to show off on; image me "Ah, those poor bloody Para (SFs)... aint got no pull like the Paras. Paras got six Generals in line for their funding, SFs is a career-killer - never knew a man to make it past Colonelcy". Hehe...
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:Traditional SF-feeder units: Advantages and Disadvantages?   3/3/2006 5:12:26 PM
>>Physically prepared? Light Infantry level vs. Signals level vs. Wall Street corporate lawyer (or Needle St. banker or Moscow State prof) level...<< There are Wall Street lawyers who run marathons, compete in iron man triathlons, and climb Himalayan mountains for entertainment. A guy fitting that description can likely not just hold his own, but actually ruck rings around, most guys in the light infantry. Stereotypes are dangerous, particularly since if a Wall Street lawyer decides to try and get into a special operations unit, odds are pretty strong he's going to be more of the above sort of interests than the guy who likes to order seconds off the dessert menu. >>Mentally prepared? Ability to operate begind enemy lines (which scares the $#!T out of many men who will fight quite bravely on the front lines) vs. too aggressive doctrine (which many airborne troops delibrately inculcate to offset working behind enemy lines)...<< I don't particularly see how original unit has anything to do with this -- some guys are cut out for certain types of stress and some are not. The special operations training/selection pipeline identifies such guys, or at least strives to. One can spend an entire career as an airborne infantryman in a peacetime army and get no more pushed and tested at such things than the previously alluded to Wall Street lawyer -- hell, as far as specifically operating behind enemy lines, one can spend a career involving wartime service as well and never face that particular and peculiar scenario. (Though seeing actual combat and still feeling like this line of work is for you is, more generally, a rather good pre-selection bit of gut checking . . .) >>More practically: Should they pick a paratrooper they neednt teach how to maintain a rifle, or should they pick a former oilman who speaks Arabic like a Hajji Mustafa?<< Both. But, if you can only have one, take the guy who knows his rifle, and let the CIA, MI6, military intelligence, etc., recruit the oilman who speaks the language. Not because the latter is not nice to have, but since he's a finite asset, you need to get the most bang for the buck out of him.
 
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GOP    RE:Traditional SF-feeder units: Advantages and Disadvantages?   3/3/2006 5:50:31 PM
>>There are Wall Street lawyers who run marathons, compete in iron man triathlons, and climb Himalayan mountains for entertainment. A guy fitting that description can likely not just hold his own, but actually ruck rings around, most guys in the light infantry. Stereotypes are dangerous, particularly since if a Wall Street lawyer decides to try and get into a special operations unit, odds are pretty strong he's going to be more of the above sort of interests than the guy who likes to order seconds off the dessert menu.<< I have to agree here. My Dasowns his own company, and he is very active. Weight lifting, running, hiking, watersports, swimming, etc are all his main hobbies because they give him a chance to do something challenging and release stress. Wall-Street lawyers also have a high stress job. >>More practically: Should they pick a paratrooper they neednt teach how to maintain a rifle, or should they pick a former oilman who speaks Arabic like a Hajji Mustafa?<< It depends on several things. Who is more physically prepared? Who is the smartest? Who shows the most initiative?
 
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olive greens    RE:Traditional SF-feeder units: Advantages and Disadvantages?   3/4/2006 8:57:57 AM
>> There are Wall Street lawyers who run marathons, compete in iron man triathlons, and climb Himalayan mountains for entertainment. A guy fitting that description can likely not just hold his own, but actually ruck rings around, most guys in the light infantry. Stereotypes are dangerous, particularly since if a Wall Street lawyer decides to try and get into a special operations unit, odds are pretty strong he's going to be more of the above sort of interests than the guy who likes to order seconds off the dessert menu. << Hey! No offense meant to Wall Street lawyers. I just needed a convenient civilian job and seeing how they were historically involved in OSS I just dropped them in. What I meant by comparing civilians with military (LI or Sig) is that military come under standard, known parameters while civs can be Mt. Everest climbers or more probably not.
 
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GOP    RE:Traditional SF-feeder units: Advantages and Disadvantages?   3/4/2006 12:48:09 PM
>>Hey! No offense meant to Wall Street lawyers. I just needed a convenient civilian job and seeing how they were historically involved in OSS I just dropped them in. What I meant by comparing civilians with military (LI or Sig) is that military come under standard, known parameters while civs can be Mt. Everest climbers or more probably not.<< Good point, but I think that if you are physically and mentally capable, then any of the SOF forces will train you to be great. I would guess that about 25% of the SF community had no prior military training before they went through 18x...maybe the same number for the Rangers. About 95% of AFSOC/SEAL commandos have had no real infantry training at all, and they are very good. I personally don't want to spend 2-3 years in the fleet just for a chance to go to BUD/S (I would if I had to). I am sure the AFSOC guys would feel the same way about having to spend time as a ordnance man or somesuch. That is why the military has things like the SEAL challenge. It bolsters recruiting for the SEALs. SOF training is designed for and is very effective at weeding out the guys who can't make it and keeping the guys who have what it takes. If you can make it through BUD/S or SFAS (etc), then you have earned your initiation into whatever unit you tried out for.
 
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DropShort    RE:Traditional SF-feeder units: Advantages and Disadvantages?   3/4/2006 2:37:08 PM
Speaking from a British point of view, Para reg hate anyone that isn't Para reg. Even though all arms p-company is a month long (Para reg is only a week, although they cover the same syllabus over the phase 2 infantry course) anyone that doesn't have the same cap badge is a 'Hat'. This isn’t going to do much for unit cohesion. Upon passing SAS selection you prove that you are an equal soldier to all those that have passed with you, b It is then during continuation training that the successful applicants are molded into SAS soldiers. Use what you know to get you through selection… Leave what you know at the door after that.
 
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eu4ea    RE:Traditional SF-feeder units: Advantages and Disadvantages?   3/30/2006 12:37:13 PM
There's also age. If you are older that a certain age (is it 32?), you wont get into the SF - regardless of wether you run triathlons for fun, speak arabic like a hajji, have enough brains to have a master's/Phd, and enough leadership/initiative to start a multi-million dolar business out of your living room. Which is actually unfortunate - there indeed are folks of that description who'd join SF out of patriotism (and because they no longer have a need for a substantial salary). I tend to think such folks would be of inmense value -the sort of quick, smart, adaptable and succesfull people you'd *truly* want. Instead, however, the system is skewed towards hiring the mid-20's bar brawler rather than hiring the highly succesfull mid-30's guy who the 20 year old would typically work for, if he's lucky. eu4ea
 
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