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Subject: Guantanamo Bay And The Future Of Islam
SYSOP    1/30/2015 4:59:11 AM
 
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Spiky    Obvious   1/30/2015 7:14:35 PM
"While many detainees came from a poverty, many did not. Most of the forty percent that came from Arabia (Saudi Arabia, Yemen and the Gulf States) were economically well off." .......... because they believe what is in the Koran. It's a good thing most Muslims don't take the Jihadi passages of the Koran literally. It is not extreme its just plain Islamic writing.
 
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mia33    koran   1/31/2015 4:36:20 AM
no matter how one looks at the problems of that region, one has to count Islam as a huge ingredient of the illness. there have been and are countries with huge oil reserves that do not suffer as islamic countries do. and not all islamic countries have oil and yet, they still have similar problems to other oil based islamics. my feeling is the muslim religion is at the basis for the stagnation of the region. 
 
if one looks at patriarchal religion one sees similarities. the problems of islam are an exaggerated mirror to the problems of christian countries. to understand the cultural problems of the world's governments we need to look closely at the controling religions. and that includes all religions like hinduism, buddhism, and the rest. the separation of church and state in the US has served us well. small wonder the US is the most affluent country in the world.... or at least rich. keeping religion under control is a huge first step to a better? society. keeping the state and all religions separate is so important.
 
not having spiritual belief is not a good answer either. ask the chinese about that one. 
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Nate Dog    Separation of Church and State   1/31/2015 9:38:47 AM
At least in the U.S. is directly derived from the fact the America was created by mixing migration from England and France. 2 countries that have spent the last half Millennia doing just that.
Its been a British national pastime since Henry VIII'th and the French were the first to constitunalise the concept. 
Sure, there are some Oil rich european nations, South American nations and America itself which do very well from their oil wealth without it becoming the detrimental force it is in the Middle east, but that's not universally true. Venezuala is a shithole and shares many of the problems these Muslim nations do. That goes for some African nations and has little to do with Islam.
Its largely due to impoverished nations, that haven't had the chance to develop robust self reliant societies, all of a sudden getting a cash windfall. Rather than that windfall being applied to nation building, it gets squandered and breeds huge amounts of corruption. Simply because these fragile societies never developed the rule of law. the culture of accountability, even that primitive (to us) concept of nationalism. All of which help build a modern cogent society. Saddly the arab nations dont have this.
A better example of Isam being a harmful force would have been to site Iran and Turkey. Both nations that have vas natural reserves, economically do very well, yet both suffer from issues alien to us. Iran's are intrinsic and huge, Turkeys were largely solved but are returning. If you'd have sighted them, i'd have had a tougher hard debunking your speculation. 
 
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keffler25       1/31/2015 2:43:30 PM
Britain and France FAILED in their efforts to keep religion out of the state, Nate. (Church of England and Catholicism solidly ensconced in the state laws until recently.
 
The American founding fathers noted this fact (just as Australia has a 'myth' about being descended from 'convicts' that has a substantial basis in fact, American colonists 'fled religious persecution' [Maryland being a haven for English catholics for example]) and deliberately designed their political system for that known fact. Huguenots were a major part of that effort.

Sure, there are some Oil rich european nations, South American nations and America itself which do very well from their oil wealth without it becoming the detrimental force it is in the Middle east, but that's not universally true. Venezuala is a shithole and shares many of the problems these Muslim nations do. That goes for some African nations and has little to do with Islam.

Its largely due to impoverished nations, that haven't had the chance to develop robust self reliant societies, all of a sudden getting a cash windfall. Rather than that windfall being applied to nation building, it gets squandered and breeds huge amounts of corruption. Simply because these fragile societies never developed the rule of law. the culture of accountability, even that primitive (to us) concept of nationalism. All of which help build a modern cogent society. Saddly the arab nations dont have this.

A better example of Isam being a harmful force would have been to site Iran and Turkey. Both nations that have vas natural reserves, economically do very well, yet both suffer from issues alien to us. Iran's are intrinsic and huge, Turkeys were largely solved but are returning. If you'd have sighted them, i'd have had a tougher hard debunking your speculation. 


 
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Spiky       1/31/2015 4:53:11 PM
"Britain and France FAILED in their efforts to keep religion out of the state, Nate. (Church of England and Catholicism solidly ensconced in the state laws until recently. The American founding fathers noted this fact and deliberately designed their political system for that known fact." .... so very true (although some of the founding fathers were for a state religion, thankfully it didn't come to pass).
 
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trenchsol       1/31/2015 10:37:04 PM
Oil wealth did not change anything, except those who own it were able to buy guns. And become pain in the a**. They are just what they always have been, but few of them paid attention before. They were chopping each others heads for centuries, and now money allows them to extend the area of operations.
 
But, of course, it was because of colonialism. Don't start me about colonialism. My country has been occupied from late 11th century until the late 20th century. By Hungarians, Austrians, Italians and, finally Serbs. Are we going around, blowing ourselves up with explosives and killing children ?  Are we thinking that someone owes us because our eastern border was dividing line between the Ottoman Empire and Europe, and we fought Ottomans for centuries ? Colonialism is a lousy excuse for anything.
 
It is the mentality. Some people just have the wrong one....
 
 
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Nate Dog    Bravely done Arabs   2/5/2015 12:44:50 AM
 
Why the #### do we bother?
Screw 'em, if they want to live let them fight their own battles.
I can't imagine the possible gain from fighting for those that refuse to defend themselves.
 
 
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WarNerd       2/6/2015 4:55:34 AM
no matter how one looks at the problems of that region, one has to count Islam as a huge ingredient of the illness. there have been and are countries with huge oil reserves that do not suffer as islamic countries do. and not all islamic countries have oil and yet, they still have similar problems to other oil based islamics. my feeling is the muslim religion is at the basis for the stagnation of the region. 
Actually it is a common malady of countries with oil but without other export industries.  All of the oil exporting countries in Africa fall into that category, and very few are Muslim.  The problem also applies to countries outside those regions.  The problem is the corruption, not Islam, ingrained into the cultures.
 
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