Nope...

 

35x guns equals - 

 

2x batteries of 6 guns to be provided for 3 Brigade. (12 in total).

 

2x batteries of 6 guns to be provided for 7 Brigade. (12 in total).

 

1x battery of 6 guns for School of Artillery (53 Independent Battery - 6 in total). 

 

5x guns for RAEME Trade Training School and the maintenance "pool" of guns (ie to replace those from the operational batteries as they require major maintenance).

 

Gun battery sizes ain't changing... 

 

 Gun battery sizes ain't changing... 

The hell they arn't........the Brits and the Yanks both use 8 gun batteries for their towed artillery.

 

They also still have 'crazy notions' of providing 1 battery per manouvre unit. Which is clearly the wrong approach because according to Abe 6 guns can support the needs of the entire army - from training to independent fire support for 3 brigades across 4 continents!?!?!!

 

Brett.

So doing the maths 3bde gets 4 guns per btn or one per coy and 7 bde are slightly better off with 6 guns per btn.  Seems a little under gunned to me.

 

How about three 8 gun bty's for 3 bde (total 24 M-777) while retaining two 8 gun M-198 bty for 7 bde for eventual replacement with a gun on truck solution (refubished M-198 or M-777 on Copperhead 6x6?).  How many battlegroups is 7 bde meant to have anyway?  If it is three, counting 2/14 LH , shouldn't 7 bde also have 3 bty?  Next step, with 5/7 RAR split into 5 and 7 RAR does this give 1 bde 4 battle groups?  Will we need 4 bty of SPG?

From what I can see, 7th brigade has 3 Batteries of M198's? Or does headquarters battery have guns? I am assuming HQ battery is purely an admin formation though.

 

3 Batteries of 6 guns each would give 6 guns per battlegroup, 2 per rifle company.

Before you start frothing at the mouth, Brett, Abe clearly described the new "gun line" procedures, Army will be implementing with the new artillery system. I was also clearly referring to Australian Artillery batteries and addressing an apparent misconception that the reduced number of guns is leading to a reduction in the size of the Australian artillery battery. It is not. It is however leading to a reduction in the number of Australian Artillery batteries, unless follow-on phases of LAND 17 are authorised. 

 

Each battery of 6 guns will maintain 3x troops of 2 guns each. 3 Brigade maintains 3x infantry battalions, currently supported by 3x artillery batteries. These batteries are however equipped with 6x L-118/9 105mm guns. In future, under phase 1 of LAND 17, 4 Field Regt will be equipped with 2x batteries of 12x M777A2 155mm guns. Gun detachments will be generated from these troops depending on the fire support needs of the particular battalions. If a battalion needs 6x guns in support, that's what they'll get. If a brigade sized exercise or deployment for 3 Brigade, occurs then it will most probably be the case that an extra battery from 1 Brigade of SP guns is brought in anyway, as is the case in Afghanistan where towed and self-propelled guns are used in combination to maximise each other's strengths.

  

Artillery fire is about effects, not about who has the most guns and 12x M777A2 guns will be such an enormous boost in range and lethality compared to the L-118/9, that the reduced number of tubes isn't going to matter. Army is STILL getting an enormous firepower boost, with the M777A2 alone providing more firepower than the M-198 gun can manage. 

  

On top of which we are also getting self-propelled 155mm guns. This has been confirmed by Government.

 

The basis of provisioning for LAND 17 is for 3 artillery regiments, one of SP guns and 2 of towed guns, plus support batteries within each regiment. That is all the allocated budget from Government will cover. I too wish that one artillery battery per infantry battalion was the basis for provisioning, but the trade-off is the acquisition of self-propelled guns. If JUST M777A2's were acquired, it would probably be the case that 7x artillery batteries worth would be acquired. (Recall the 57x M777A2 DSCA announcement, much)?

 

The fact that SPG's are authorised however is the biggest boost Army has had firepower wise in years. SPG's offer SO much more firepower than towed guns and more than offsets the loss of a couple of extra batteries, IMHO... 

 

Any deployed force that is authorised to take artillery will be able to provide a package of however many guns may realistically be required and that is the whole point of LAND 17. Army is required strategically to be able to provide a brigade and a separate battalion group on operations for an extended period and support same. Nothing more. The LAND 17 package accomodates this strategic requirement, plus provides a sound basis for expansion if ever needed.

 

Is this acquisition sufficient for continental armoured warfare across the vastness of Australia? No, of course not, but Army and Government aren't trying to provide such a capability.

 

Frankly this attitude smacks of the "22 Tigers aren't enough", "59x Abrams aren't enough" type discussions to me.

 

Enough for WHAT I argue? If Government requires more from Army than is in it's strategic policy advice that it should damn well front up the resources to allow that to happen. 

 

Personally, I'm overjoyed that Army is getting M777A2 and K-9/PZH-2000 SP guns. I never thought I'd actually see the day...

 

 

 

1 Field Regiment (Brisbane) has 2x batteries of L-118/9 105mm guns and 1x battery of M-198 155mm guns.

4 Field Regiment (Townsville/Sydney) has 3x batteries of L-118/9 105mm guns. 

8/12 Mdm Regt has 2x batteries of M-198 155mm guns. 

HQ Battery provides support and administrative functions, just like HQ Company in an infantry battalion does. It does not maintain any artillery guns itself. 

Only infantry battalions are provided artillery batteries in support. Other units - Cavalry, Armoured Regt's, Combat Engineers etc, might request artillery support and receive same if available, but Artillery's job first and foremost is to support the infantry. 

 

The M-198's are shagged and the upgrade program from LAND 17 have been dropped. Both the L-118/9 and M-198 will be withdrawn from service when LAND 17 Phase 1 has delivered it's guns. (36x M777A2 and 18x SPG).

 

Within 7 Brigade, there are 4x battalions (6RAR, 8/9 RAR, 9RQR and 25/49 RQR) with 6 and 8/9 being ARA battalions. Only the ARA battalions will be provided with an artillery battery in support.

 

1 Field Regt (7 Brigade's artillery regiment) will be downsizing to only 2x artillery batteries of 6x M777A2 guns each as I've already explained and these batteries will support 6 and 8/9RAR's. The reserve units may get to exercise with the regular artillery units every so often, but they won't have their own artillery support unit, unless an 81mm mortar equipped battery is raised as a reserve unit within 1 Field Regt, but I haven't heard anything about that.

 

1 Brigade has 2x mechanised infantry battalions. Each of these will receive direct support from their "own" SP gun equipped artillery battery. Neither the Cavalry Regt nor 1 Armoured Regt is entitled, nor has ever had their own supporting artillery battery and they will not in future either.

As I've said before, here's hoping follow-on phases of LAND 17 are authorised and more guns acquired, but I can't see it happening in the current climate... 

 

 

 

 

 

Each battery of 6 guns will maintain 3x troops of 2 guns each.

Unless it has changed since I was in the RAA a battery has two sections with three guns each.

3 Brigade maintains 3x infantry battalions, currently supported by 3x artillery batteries. These batteries are however equipped with 6x L-118/9 105mm guns. In future, under phase 1 of LAND 17, 4 Field Regt will be equipped with 2x batteries of 12x M777A2 155mm guns. Gun detachments will be generated from these troops depending on the fire support needs of the particular battalions. If a battalion needs 6x guns in support, that's what they'll get. If a brigade sized exercise or deployment for 3 Brigade, occurs then it will most probably be the case that an extra battery from 1 Brigade of SP guns is brought in anyway, as is the case in Afghanistan where towed and self-propelled guns are used in combination to maximise each other's strengths. 

Makes sense, we'll never deploy our entire regular army at once anyway so there is always going to be a battery free to deploy with another battalion.

Apart from all that I agree with everything else said, I'm creaming my jeans that this is finally happenning.

Artillery is changing it's structure to 3x troop of 2 guns per battery, due to the increased capability of the 155mm guns, supported by AFATDS - C4I system and the new precision guided munitions (Excalibur, SMART 155 and the future "guided fuse" system).

 

I agree. It is an exciting time for Artillery and Army in general.

 

Now if they can only convince Government to fork out for a Phase 4 of LAND 17 where 3x operational batteries (1x per Artillery Regiment) worth of NLOS-LS systems can be acquired, I'd be one VERY happy chappy...

 

NLOS-LS is "da bomb" as they say...

 

ww.youtube.com/watch?v=6cL46ifGQJE

 

 

Agreed on the NLOS-LS.

I think that the points above are the critical factors. You and Abe are talking about the revelution in Arty capability and I agree that this a good thing. However my concern was that under this structure the maximum number of guns capable of being deployed was too small. I admit though, I am having a hard time envisaging the circumtances where more than 8 M777s and 4 SPGs (the maximum sustainble deployments using rule of threes) will be necessary. Obviously this is more than sufficient to support even a brigade on ops under most circumstances..................damn, does this mean I have to tell Abe he was right?.........argh! I am still not convinced that this establishment is sufficient for conventional war. I guess it really comes down to the type of enemy that it is evisaged one is engaging.

 

Brett.

Er, no. Armoured units are just as entitled to the fire of artillery as the infantry. The whole point is NO unit has artillery in support - the artillery belongs to the brigade commander. Now, if a battlegroup commander is lucky or the brigade main effort or whatever, then he might be given a battery in direct support for a designated task or period of time, but that is pretty unusual. If the artillery is just in general support than everyone, infantry battalion or number three blanket stacker, is equally entitled to support. An infantry battalion has no more inherant right to fire support than anyone else.

 

One of the biggest improvements of the new artillery is the reduction in the fire unit to just two guns. At the moment each battery of 6 guns is a single fire unit - the battery can only serve on mission at a time. One of the requirements of artillery is superimposition, which is that one fire unit must be superimposed on another, so it can be used to serve unexpected targets etc. That means that a regiment with 3 batteries can only serve 2 targets at a time, as one battery must always be superimposed on another (now if you have a mortar platoon or two along for the ride as well life gets better, but you see the point). With the fire unit reduced to just two guns, a single 6 gun battery has 3 fire units all of its own. A two-battery regiment therefore has 6 fire units, and can serve 5 targets at a time as opposed to just two. Since each 2-gun detachment of the new guns has more range and far, far better ammunition than the old guns, you can see how Land-17 dramatically increases the capability for indirect fires.