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Subject: RUSI prsentation by Wooner on Collins
gf0012-aust    11/4/2009 2:57:04 PM
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Volkodav       11/5/2009 4:14:58 AM
Thanks for that gf, very interesting especially the Q&A at the end.
 
Ex O boat guys have told me similar previously, recruitment and retention were major issues and availability was shocking due to the lack of a domestic TLS capability.  People forget how bad industrial relations and project management used to be in Australia prior to the sub program being used to update the whole show.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       11/5/2009 4:20:21 AM

Thanks for that gf, very interesting especially the Q&A at the end.

Ex O boat guys have told me similar previously, recruitment and retention were major issues and availability was shocking due to the lack of a domestic TLS capability.  People forget how bad industrial relations and project management used to be in Australia prior to the sub program being used to update the whole show.


The sub program was used to update our IR system eh? And here was me thinking that had more to do with the accord, then enterprise bargaining, then the first round of workplace relations laws. Go figure.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       11/6/2009 10:50:24 AM
Was Wooner involved with the project? I can't finding anything on the web other than references to the book he co-authored and his appointment at ANU.
 
Anyway, I'm not that impressed with this paper. He spins the stats on the Collins Class project to highlight it in the best possible light. For instance, the claim that the subs were "only" on average delivered 26 months late neglects the point that the first boat didn't have a fully operational combat system until 2004, more than 10 years after the Collins was launched.
 
The constant references to how other projects that have done worse doesn't impress me either. We've had two decades worth of f*ck ups in defence acquisitions because of the insistance of the ADF to Australianise everything and the insistance by the Government to involve local industry. Just because we may have f*cked up the Seasprites and Wedgetail more than we f*cked up the Collins Class doesn't make it an acceptable f*ck up.
 
This paragraph gets me:

"Most of this was delivered under Sea 1114 for around $5 billion, which, allowing for inflation, was actually slightly less than the contracted price of $3.9 billion. However, the project had encountered many difficulties, that were to be rectified under new project numbers, and an additional $1.2 billion was spent overcoming these. Yet of this additional expenditure most was for capability upgrades&S94; only around $143 million was spent to rectify the specific faults (excepting the replacement of the now terminal combat system). On that ground the Collins is a singular success because, despite its portrayal in the media as a financial disaster, it arose out of a period of enormous acquisition cost overruns to finish two decades later with the original price still relevant to project management objectives."
 
How does he figure that $1.2 billion with "only" $143 millon on specific faults and the rest to provide capability upgrades less than a decade after the thing was introduced is an acceptable outcome? Why did the thing need a capability upgrade so soon? Why doesn't he mention the cost of replacing the combat system, which only finds its way into some brackets, which I believe was about $1 billion? Saying that those amounts of taxpayers dollars being wasted constitutes a singular success is a joke!
 
What we should have done instead of going on this very expensive frolic which risked out national security was to have the Germans build 6 to 8 Type 209-1500's for us, like they have for many other small to medium size navies. The type has the same range as the Collins Class but 1/3 less weapons, which doesn't matter because no modern sub has ever used 22 torpedos on a cruise anyway. They use less crew members so we would have greater availability and we would have probably been able to afford the fleet, a submarine maintenance facility, training in Germany for the  maintainers, a tender and then probably would have had some change to spare. I hope that somebody grows a brain and buys off the shelf in this manner with our next subs, though I'm not holding out my hopes for it.  
 
 
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Volkodav       11/6/2009 9:17:17 PM
 
Was Wooner involved with the project? I can't finding anything on the web other than references to the book he co-authored and his appointment at ANU.
 
No which is why he was he was commisioned to reseach and write the book, think of him as an impartial biographer who has been given access to people and documents covering all aspects of the subject so he can produce an accurate and even handed account of what happened and why.
 
Anyway, I'm not that impressed with this paper. He spins the stats on the Collins Class project to highlight it in the best possible light. For instance, the claim that the subs were "only" on average delivered 26 months late neglects the point that the first boat didn't have a fully operational combat system until 2004, more than 10 years after the Collins was launched.
 
Its only "spin" if you have already decided to the contrary and refuse to accept other accounts.

No submarine to date, conventional or nuclear, has a combat system as capable as that "intended" for the Collins.  The RAN were kidding themselves asking for it and the government screwed up in paying Rockwell for it even though they failed to deliver.  Rockwell of course screwed up by promising they could do when when in actual fact they didn't realy know where to start.  Interestingly there were several (less expensive) systems available that offered superior performance to both the Rockwell / Boeing original and the Raytheon RCS that could have been inserted during the build, i.e. on the last 3 or 4 boats during construction.  There were plenty of warnings that the combat system was in trouble, even before boat one was assembled, but the key players chose to ignore them and persist with Rockwell.
 
EB has a the 1:3:8 Law, i.e. what takes 1 hour in a module, will take 3 hours in an assembled hull and 8 hours in the water.  By not putting the Rockwell system out of our misery after boat one, when it was already clear it was NEVER going to work, the cost of rectification was blown out by a factor of 8 for the later boats.  This was government and RAN decission not ASC.
 
The constant references to how other projects that have done worse doesn't impress me either. We've had two decades worth of f*ck ups in defence acquisitions because of the insistance of the ADF to Australianise everything and the insistance by the Government to involve local industry. Just because we may have f*cked up the Seasprites and Wedgetail more than we f*cked up the Collins Class doesn't make it an acceptable f*ck up.
 
Well Greece has refused delivery of their german built Type 212 on quality and performance grounds.  Canada is having diabolicals with their Upholders with only one in service some of the time, there is even a suggestion from some of their personnel, who have experience with the Collins class, that they regret that they didn't buy some when they had the chance.
 
This paragraph gets me:

"Most of this was delivered under Sea 1114 for around $5 billion, which, allowing for inflation, was actually slightly less than the contracted price of $3.9 billion. However, the project had encountered many difficulties, that were to be rectified under new project numbers, and an additional $1.2 billion was spent overcoming these. Yet of this additional expenditure most was for capability upgrades&S94; only around $143 million was spent to rectify the specific faults (excepting the replacement of the now terminal combat system). On that ground the Collins is a singular success because, despite its portrayal in the media as a financial disaster, it arose out of a period of enormous acquisition cost overruns to finish two decades later with the original price still relevant to project management objectives."
 
How does he figure that $1.2 billion with "only" $143 millon on specific faults and the rest to provide capability upgrades less than a decade after the thing was introduced is an acceptable outcome? Why did the thing need a capability upgrade so soon? Why doesn't he mention the cost of replacing the combat system, which only finds its way into some brackets, which I believe was about $1 billion? Saying that those amounts of taxpayers dollars being wasted constitutes a singular success is a joke!
 
The highlighted section says it all.  Besides the class is approaching the middle of their life now and a major upgrade would have been expected anyway, which is why I am amazed so much time and money was wasted on Rockwells disaster when other cheaper option would have provided better performance and could have been incorporated during build.  The ANZAC's are even newer than the Collins, are far less sophisticated and are already begining their mid life updates.  Hulls last far longer than ships systems which is why they have regular upgrades and improvements. 

The Japanese take it even further with their submarines only having a life of type of 16 years.  They build one new boat a year and maintain a fleet of 16 effectively replacing their subs at what we would call the mid life point with a totally new hull to house the updated systems.  It is not actually that much more expensive to do it this way and provides a much more modern and sustainable fleet.  Greg Combet has mentioned the possibility of our twelve new boats being built in batches to create a more sustainable capability.
 
What we should have done instead of going on this very expensive frolic which risked out national security was to have the Germans build 6 to 8 Type 209-1500's for us, like they have for many other small to medium size navies. The type has the same range as the Collins Class but 1/3 less weapons, which doesn't matter because no modern sub has ever used 22 torpedos on a cruise anyway. They use less crew members so we would have greater availability and we would have probably been able to afford the fleet, a submarine maintenance facility, training in Germany for the  maintainers, a tender and then probably would have had some change to spare. I hope that somebody grows a brain and buys off the shelf in this manner with our next subs, though I'm not holding out my hopes for it.  
 
Disagree, the Type 209-1500 is actually inferior to the Collins in that it can not conduct many of the real world missions the Collins, and the Oberon before it, have been carrying out since the late 90's.  Start adding the new roles the Collins is being updated to carryout, i.e. special forces insertion (plus others I am not at liberty to discuss), the type 209 is simply too small and constrained to receive similat upgrades.  Discount the number of torpedoes and think in terms of space and weight, what can be carried inplace of some or all of the torpedoes......
 
At the end of the day what we have in service now is superior to any current serving, or in production, non nuclear sub in the world.  They are not as good as they could/should have been, they are starting to suffer reliability and obsolescents issues with old equipment and they are expensive to upgrade and maintain with the decission to layup one of the subs due to crewing issues now causing availability issues for the class. 
 
It can be argued that proper risk management could have seen the combat system changed for the last three or four boats during build and that the build could have been extended to eight hulls built in two batches of four over a longer period of time with the second four incorporating all the lessons tearned on the first four.  This would have avoided the majority of the availability issues we are encountering today as well as the need for urgent rectifications being rushed to incorporate changing requirements.
 
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Volkodav    Interesting reading   11/6/2009 9:32:48 PM

 
 

?From Collins to Force 2030: The Challenge of the Future Submarine?

 

SPEECH TO THE SYDNEY INSTITUTE

 

Wednesday 4 November 2009

 

CHECK-AGAINST-DELIVERY

 

 

Director of the Institute, Mr Gerard Henderson, Ladies and Gentlemen.

 

I would like to talk to you tonight on the topic of ?From Collins to Force 2030 ? the Challenge of the Future Submarine? in order to highlight the importance of this project and deal with some of my roles and responsibilities as the Minister for Defence Personnel, Materiel and Science. 

 

Submarines represent incredibly challenging demands in the combined fields of personnel, acquisition and procurement, and science. 

 

The future submarine project is itself perhaps at the margins of Australia?s present scientific and technological capacity.  We should not ignore the demanding nature of this project, which will require every bit of scientific, technological and industrial capacity that Australia can muster.  And we will inevitably require assistance from our allies to succeed.

 

For this reason, I thought that you might be interested to know how we envisage setting about this challenging task.

 

But firstly some Australian submarine history.

 

Submarines in Australian Defence

 

Just on 100 years ago, Andrew Fisher, Australia?s second Labor Prime Minister, introduced legislation to create the national defence capabilities that would be tested a mere five years later. 

 

Only two years before, Alfred Deakin ? against the advice of his Commander of Commonwealth Naval Forces, Captain William Creswell ? had decided that Australia would purchase a force of nine submarines.

 

As costs escalated, nine quickly shrank to two, and on Sunday 24 May 1914 the submarines AE1 and AE2 completed their record-breaking journey from Portsmouth to Sydney. 

 

Following the loss of AE1 on 14 September 1914, AE2 was dispatched to Suez late in 1914, and then assigned to the Dardanelles campaign.  On 25 April 1915, as Australian and New Zealand forces were preparing their assault on the beaches of Gallipoli, AE2 slipped through the Dardanelles and into the Sea of Marmora where, a couple of days later, she was scuttled having ?run amok? to the consternation of the Turks, but inflicting little damage.

 

Thus ended Australia?s first experiment with submarines, an experiment that would take some five decades to repeat.

 

World War Two saw submarines come into their own.  With John Curtin as Prime Minister, Fremantle, with 170 submarines home-ported there, became the second largest operating base for the US, UK and Dutch forces fighting in the Indian and Pacific Oceans. Following the war, the Royal Navy continued to maintain a submarine squadron in Australia. 

 

Advances in submarine technology, together with dramatic changes in the operating complexity of surface fleets, led to the recognition in Australia that submarines would be a significant strategic asset. 

 

Accordingly, in 1963 the Naval Board decided to re-establish the Australian submarine service with the purchase of four, later six, Oberon class submarines.  These highly effective vessels laid the foundation for the submarine force we have today.

 

In 1985, the Defence Minister Kim Beazley commissioned a major review of Australia?s defence needs, and in 1986 the Hawke Government initiated the Collins project to deliver six state-of-the-art submarines based on the successful Kockums design for the Swedish navy. 

 

The technological and industrial achievement of the Collins project was immense.  It is a matter of very considerable regret that public confidence in the Collins class was undermined in the late 1990s, just as the submarine was proving its formidable war fighting abilities in international combined exercises coordinated by the US.

 

Given the fundamental importance of our submarine force this has been very damaging.

 

The Strategic Argument for our Future Submarine

 

In May this year, the Rudd Government released the 2009 White Paper.  This outlined a force structure ? Force 2030 ? that will enable Australia to meet the strategic challenges of a rapidly changing region. 

 

The White Paper reaffirms the long-held view that the primary task of the ADF is to deter and defeat armed attacks against Australia.

 

To this end, the White Paper recognises that the aim of establishing sea and air control in our primary operating environment does not entail a purely defensive or reactive approach.  Rather, we must be able to conduct proactive combat operations at a distance from our shores. 

 

This demands a mix of intelligence, defensive and strike assets to ensure both deterrence and, if that were to fail, an ability to impose unacceptably high costs on any potential adversary.  Put simply, we need to be able to take warfare to an adversary?s front door.

 

The White Paper identified the need for Australia to develop and maintain a force that has a capability advantage and can provide protection against strategic uncertainty.

 

Submarines are able to stop an adversary from deploying its? fleet by maintaining sea denial. By imposing disproportionate costs on an adversary, submarines represent an asymmetric threat well suited to Australia?s defence.

 

The Rudd Government has announced its decision to acquire 12 next generation submarines. The future submarine builds on our experience with the Collins class, aims to offer greater range, endurance and payload.

 

As I noted earlier, this is an extraordinarily complex task, imposing ground-breaking demands on both science and industry.  But the Rudd government is confident that Australian industry can again rise to the occasion, as it did with the Collins Project 25 years ago.

 

But it is important to recognise that the future submarine?s development and delivery is intimately dependent on our continuing ability to manage, crew and operate the Collins class. 

 

As they approach middle age, the Collins submarines are throwing up a series of engineering and operational problems that impose real demands on the Navy, the DMO and the ASC.  The Government is working together with each of these to address these problems.

 

The Navy is currently examining ways of building up the submarine personnel force in order to ensure that the future submarine is properly crewed. The DMO is looking to the improvement of its contract management to ensure that the technical problems that Collins confronts from time to time can be managed quickly and well, and the ASC is about to take on a new CEO.

 

So, within all of that context, I now want to highlight some of the challenges we face in the future submarine project, in the areas of my own responsibility including industry, acquisition, personnel and science.

 

The Industrial Challenge

 

Without a doubt, the key challenge for the future submarines will be the industrial challenge, which also presents the greatest opportunity of the program.

 

The challenge to industry covers facets of the design, construction and eventual maintenance of our future submarine.

 

The Government is carefully considering the issues that are raised under each of these phases in order to inform the acquisition strategy to be utilised for this program.

 

The Design Challenge

 

Firstly, on the design stage of the project.

 

A constant criticism of the Collins experience was the decision to design a submarine around an evolved Kockums platform rather than simply purchase an existing ?Off the Shelf? submarine.

 

It is worth asking the question would Australia be in a better situation if it had simply built one of the existing designs offered in the tender competition for Collins or invited someone else to build it for us?

 

The available evidence says no; the lead boat of the Dutch submarine design, Walrus, was delayed 3 years due to a fire. The British Type 2400, the initial favourite for the tender, suffered a three year delay due to construction faults and safety concerns. The first Thyssen TR 1700 to be built in Argentina was only 52 per cent complete before it was abandoned. The two HDW submarines built in India were delivered 5 and 6 years later respectively.

 

It should also be noted that none of these submarines matched the Collins in terms of performance, then or now.

 

In planning for the future submarine, we need to consider a range of engineering and production solutions, ranging from the acquisition of a Military Off The Shelf (MOTS) design, options consistent with the Kinnaird/Mortimer reforms, to a developmental solution designed indigenously.

 

Another issue for the Collins was the failure to adequately consider through life support issues in concept, design and construction phases.

 

I recently visited the US Navy?s Centre of Excellence for Ships and Ship Systems at Carderock and Electric Boat.  A key lesson reinforced during these visits was that design development must be very mature before construction commences.

 

Electric Boat have a rule known as the ?law of 1:3:8?, that is, a task that takes an hour in module construction takes 3 hours when the hull has been assembled and 8 hours when the submarine is in the water. In other words, make sure the design is mature before you start cutting steel.

 

The Construction Challenge

 

Which brings me to the construction of the future submarine.

 

The design and construction of a fleet of 12 new advance submarines will be without doubt the largest defence acquisition this country has ever engaged in. I would go as far as to say that it is possibly the most complex and sophisticated industrial project ever pursued in this country.

 

Some commentators have begun to estimate costs in excess of $30 billion for the project. It is too early for this. However these estimates give some idea of the potential scale of the project depending on what choices are made.

 

To put this in perspective, the entire Snowy Mountains Scheme cost around $7 billion in today?s dollars. This project will be among the largest industrial project ever contemplated in Australia. If managed properly, in addition to providing the Navy with 12 highly capable submarines, it will contribute to the modernisation of the Australian manufacturing industry.

 

Submarines are extraordinarily complex systems. For example, each Collins Class Submarine has over 3,800,000 parts, 75 kilometres of cable, 200,000 on-board connections, 23.5 kilometres of pipe, 14,000 pipe welds and 34.5 kilometres of pipe welding. This complexity is akin to building a space shuttle.

 

The construction of the Collins Class submarines in Australia provided the catalyst for the rapid modernisation of significant sections of our manufacturing industry.

 

When the Collins project began, there were only 35 Australian companies certified to the quality levels required for defence work. By 1998 there were 1500.

 

The Collins construction involved 70 major subcontractors in Australia and overseas. It created over 2,000 jobs and more importantly the project drove more than 100 Australian companies to achieve the ISO 9000 quality assurance standard.

 

The Hawke-Keating Governments sought a minimum local content target of 70 per cent for the platform. This was a very ambitious target compared to the 30 per cent participation that was the defence project average at the time. That this was eventually exceeded is a tribute to all participants. Of the $5.1 billion cost of the original Collins project, $4 billion was spent in Australia.

 

However, we have found it difficult to maintain the industrial capacity built around this level of local content. Some of the ongoing maintenance problems of the Collins are driven by this issue. Accordingly, we are giving serious thought to what industrial capabilities must be supported within country to sustain this project.

 

The Sustainment Challenge

 

Finally, we should also consider the issues that we will face in maintaining our future submarine fleet.

 

Sustainment of submarines is always a challenge given the complexity of each boat.

 

However, on this front, Australia has come a long way over the last 25 years.

 

For the Oberon class submarines the Navy was dependent on overseas suppliers for some 85 to 90 per cent of the support and the refit of the first Oberon class submarine cost 76 per cent of its purchase price.

 

The maintenance of the Collins Class, while not perfect, has obviously improved on that. But significant challenges remain.

 

Quite simply, we must lift the availability of our current submarines.

 

It is one of my top priorities and is at the top of the project of concerns reports that I oversee each month.

 

Acquisition Strategy

 

Our ability to get on top of the design, construction and maintenance phases will largely determine our acquisition strategy for the future submarine.


Studies have shown that 90 per cent of the discretionary decisions that affect the outcome of a project are made in the first 7 to 12 per cent of the project?s life.

 

There are three things that we must get right:

 

·        We must adequately define the operating concepts and requirements for the future submarine. The consideration of this must involve a full understanding of the trade offs between different aspects of capability.

 

·        We must develop a sophisticated acquisition strategy that has the flexibility to solve any problems, but maintains focus on delivering the agreed outcome. The contracting strategy is a very important element of this.

 

·        Finally, we must understand the interaction between capability and the acquisition strategy. It is often the interaction between these two processes that leads to trouble.

 

One of the matters that we will need to tackle early in the project is the need to invest in and develop a sustainable industrial base that is capable of designing, constructing and maintaining 12 large submarines.  

 

On this subject, some commentators have recently canvassed the concept of rolling production.  Although it is far too early for the Government to consider a detailed acquisition strategy, two contrasting models would appear to provide the boundaries within which an acquisition strategy could be designed.

 

In many instances building 12 identical submarines may be the cheapest way to build the future submarine. If you can ensure that you can acquire all the sub-systems for each boat, building 12 submarines on the same design allows the boat builder to make huge savings on the ?learning by doing? curve.

 

However, there are good capability and industrial reasons why that strategy may be questioned. For instance, it is almost certain the 12th submarine to be delivered will be at least 15 years behind the latest technology. From a technological currency point of view, there may be certain advantages to building batches of submarines.

 

For example, designing and building in batches has been found elsewhere to support a more sustainable industrial design, skills and maintenance base ? leading in turn to a greater capacity to develop a subsequent project and/or to deliver upgrade programs.

 

Moreover, to sustain the necessary design and engineering skills, it is critical that we factor in an appropriate throughput.  However, let me repeat that no decision has been made, but building 12 identical submarines or a few batches or blocks is one of the key choices that Government will need to consider.

 

Selecting the right contracting model will be an essential part of a successful acquisition strategy. The Collins submarines were built using a fixed priced contract. A rigid, inflexible commitment to the terms and conditions of the contract set in train many of the subsequent problems. An adversarial relationship between customer and builder was enshrined from the start.

 

This is not to say that we should choose a cost plus contract. I was interested to learn in my recent trip to the United States that even the Pentagon is moving away from cost plus contracts to more fixed priced contracting when the acquisition is in a mature stage.

 

Nevertheless, we must be imaginative when looking at contracting options.

 

One of the lessons from the Collins build was that there must be very close cooperation between the navy, the project manager, the combat systems integrator and platform builder. I am closely following the Alliance structure that is central to the Air Warfare Destroyer acquisition.

 

The ?People? Challenge

Of course, we cannot discuss the future submarine force without also focusing on the workforce that is needed to support it.

 

Demographic trends indicate that Australia's population is getting older. Accordingly, Defence will face increasing competition for our young recruits, particularly those in high-skilled and technical occupations. Therefore, we need to focus on retaining our good people, while at the same time, continuing to attract quality candidates across all three Services.

 

The submarine force is one area where significant improvements are needed.

 

Navy continues to experience shortfalls in qualified submariners.  This is a significant vulnerability as Navy transitions from the Collins Class submarines to the new submarine.

 

To assist in addressing these shortfalls, the Government has budgeted for additional positions to support the future maritime force.

 

I would like to touch on some of the reasons for these shortfalls and how we intend to resolve them. 

 

While the life of a submariner can be one of excitement and professional satisfaction, it is not without its challenges. Recent reviews undertaken by Navy confirm some systemic problems within the submarine workforce that have impacted on morale and job satisfaction, and consequently, on retention.

 

They include insufficient support to families, a lack of posting stability, high stress, extreme fatigue and widespread concerns about the sustainability of the current submarine force. There has also been difficulty in finding the right balance between the need to conduct effective training at sea and the need for respite while on-shore.

 

We also should not underestimate anecdotal community perceptions that a career at sea is unappealing.  Unfortunately, some young people may be quickly discouraged from a life in the Navy by the prospect of what they see as long periods away from family, friends and broader social networks.

 

Navy is committed to developing a positive cultural shift and enhanced employment conditions that will help stabilise the submarine workforce.

 

Our key competitive advantage is the unique nature of military work which comes with a comprehensive package of pay, conditions and services. In short, the ADF is a rewarding profession in every sense.

 

Through sensible recruitment and retention measures, we can build a framework for a more sustainable workforce culture. 

 

The Science Challenge

Another challenge for the future submarine will be to lock in the scientific support that will be critical to the long-term sustainability of the future submarine.

 

If Force 2030 is to have a capability edge over other forces, we must have submarines with advanced technology and systems.

 

This capability edge will be science driven. To this end, we are very fortunate to have the Defence Science and Technology Organisation (DSTO).

 

The DSTO provided research in all phases of the Collins Submarine build. It played a vital role in the development of a new high-strength, low-alloy steel. The consistency offered by this steel and the ability to weld it was an essential element in the successful construction of the Collins.

 

Just as significant was DSTO?s development of advanced anechoic tiles that render the submarine ?invisible? to enemy sonars and are at the leading edge of stealth.

 

The DSTO also made an invaluable contribution to the development of the active sonar for the Collins.  

 

The DSTO was instrumental in identifying the propeller and water flow around the hull as key drivers of the noise problems that affected HMAS Collins after launch.

 

The US Navy?s Centre of Excellence for Ships and Ship Systems at Carderock also provided invaluable support. We will be highly dependent on the US to provide science and technology support for the future submarine.

 

We need to start early on developing the science to underpin the future submarine. We have already begun investing in these efforts.

 

For example, the Government has invested $1 million in a new underwater test facility that will be used for experiments to control underwater noise.

 

The DSTO has also partnered with the Australian Maritime College to develop world class hydrodynamic facilities.

 

The DSTO is also looking at a range of additional technologies that will be key drivers of future submarine operation; these include energy storage, payload deployment, communications, autonomous systems, Air Independent Propulsion and submarine habitability.

 

The Management Challenge

The final challenge we face is the management challenge.

 

Project management performance during the design and construction of the Collins class was variable. The project management unit was split between Canberra and Adelaide with the prime contractor located in Adelaide. This led to poor communication at times with issues taking longer than they should to resolve.

 

It?s also fair to say that there was poor risk mitigation and inadequate contingency allocated. There was also insufficient recognition of the ?Parent Navy? challenge and an underestimation of through life support costs. Moreover, the through life support contract was not in place early enough.

 

A further issue that the Government is mindful of is the need to ensure, in light of the Collins experience, that there is clarity over the ownership and use of intellectual property.

 

One of the things that the Government will need to consider is a dedicated policy cell located in Canberra that could translate the strategic guidance into the actual detailed requirements of the future submarine. This will involve a deep understanding of the various tradeoffs between desired capabilities and the impact on cost, schedule and risk.

 

Additionally, consideration will need to be given to an appropriately resourced design and project management cell located in Adelaide. This cell must be located in Adelaide close to the builder. We have seen the benefits of this approach with the AWD project.

 

The ongoing upgrade of the Collins Class submarines will also be crucial to the successful management of the future submarine. Managing these upgrades well potentially provides a development path to the future submarine.

 

Conclusion

 

The future submarine project is evidently ambitious. 

 

In the view of the Rudd Government, it is also achievable. 

 

The combination of Australian scientific, technological and industrial know-how, potential technical support from Allies, sound project design and robust contract management should deliver an unparalleled strategic asset.

 

In this enterprise, we will strengthen our ties with the US, which places great value on the role that the RAN?s submarine force is able to play in combined operations.  The ability of Australia and the US to operate our submarines together is critical to our combined success.

 

Australia?s ability to conduct successful defence operations in theatres distant from our shores will be enormously strengthened by the surveillance, intelligence and strike capabilities of a long-range submarine. 

 

That is what we plan to deliver.

 

Thank you for your time this evening and I am happy to take your questions.

 
Quote    Reply

Aussiegunneragain       11/6/2009 9:53:43 PM
No which is why he was he was commisioned to reseach and write the book, think of him as an impartial biographer who has been given access to people and documents covering all aspects of the subject so he can produce an accurate and even handed account of what happened and why.

Who commissioned him? 

Its only "spin" if you have already decided to the contrary and refuse to accept other accounts.

No, it is spin because he picks and chooses the facts he wants to present to show the project in the best possible light and glosses over the stuff ups. 

EB has a the 1:3:8 Law, i.e. what takes 1 hour in a module, will take 3 hours in an assembled hull and 8 hours in the water.  By not putting the Rockwell system out of our misery after boat one, when it was already clear it was NEVER going to work, the cost of rectification was blown out by a factor of 8 for the later boats.  This was government and RAN decision not ASC.
 
I agree that the project specification was the fault of Beazley and the RAN and don't hold ASC to account for that, I just hold them to account for the various engineering failures within their remit that the type has experienced.

Well Greece has refused delivery of their german built Type 212 on quality and performance grounds.  Canada is having diabolicals with their Upholders with only one in service some of the time, there is even a suggestion from some of their personnel, who have experience with the Collins class, that they regret that they didn't buy some when they had the chance.
 
Buying from a foriegn company with a proven track record doesn't guarrantee that the project will be conducted perfectly, but it improves the odds over starting from scratch here. That is what risk management is about. The 212 is a reletively new design and one would expect a few teething troubles, but it remains to be seen whether there are anywhere near the sorts of problems that the Collins Class has had. I'd also have to know a bit more about the Greek problem, i.e. whether they had any specific specifications that added additional risks. The Upholders were a screw up but I'd argue that the Brits have less recent experience than the Germans in building DE subs, so we probably wouldn't buy from them anyway.

The highlighted section says it all.  Besides the class is approaching the middle of their life now and a major upgrade would have been expected anyway, which is why I am amazed so much time and money was wasted on Rockwells disaster when other cheaper option would have provided better performance and could have been incorporated during build.  The ANZAC's are even newer than the Collins, are far less sophisticated and are already begining their mid life updates.  Hulls last far longer than ships systems which is why they have regular upgrades and improvements. 

I don't thinWoolner was talking about mid-life upgrades. He was talking about correcting problems that happenned to improve capability as well. In any case the HMAS ANZAC was launched in 1994, a year after the HMAS Collins. If the ANZAC's are beginning their MLU's now they are doing a lot better than the Colins class which needed "capability enhancements" from the late 90's.
 
The Japanese take it even further with their submarines only having a life of type of 16 years.  They build one new boat a year and maintain a fleet of 16 effectively replacing their subs at what we would call the mid life point with a totally new hull to house the updated systems.  It is not actually that much more expensive to do it this way and provides a much more modern and sustainable fleet.  Greg Combet has mentioned the possibility of our twelve new boats being built in batches to create a more sustainable capability.
 
I don't think that is a bad idea at all.

Disagree, the Type 209-1500 is actually inferior to the Collins in that it can not conduct many of the real world missions the Collins, and the Oberon before it, have been carrying out since the late 90's.  Start adding the new roles the Collins is being updated to carryout, i.e. special forces insertion (plus others I am not at liberty to discuss), the type 209 is simply too small and constrained to receive similat upgrades.  Discount the number of torpedoes and think in terms of space and weight, what can be carried inplace of some or all of the torpedoes......

So it can sleep 14 special warries and elint operators in the torpedo racks rather than 22. Perhaps that is significant and perhaps not, but I'd suggest that if it was that important to us we could have just got the Germans to put another plug in it like they had been with the 209 for 2 decades, and create a Type 209 - 1600 or 1700 for our purposes. Sure, it adds some of the risks that we faced with upsizing the Kockums 471 but at least they would have known what they were doing. We didn't.

 


 

At the end of the day what we have in service now is superior to any current serving, or in production, non nuclear sub in the world.  They are not as good as they could/should have been, they are starting to suffer reliability and obsolescents issues with old equipment and they are expensive to upgrade and maintain with the decission to layup one of the subs due to crewing issues now causing availability issues for the class. 


 

 


 

It can be argued that proper risk management could have seen the combat system changed for the last three or four boats during build and that the build could have been extended to eight hulls built in two batches of four over a longer period of time with the second four incorporating all the lessons tearned on the first four.  This would have avoided the majority of the availability issues we are encountering today as well as the need for urgent rectifications being rushed to incorporate changing requirements.
 
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gf0012-aust       11/6/2009 11:28:05 PM

Well Greece has refused delivery of their german built Type 212 on quality and performance grounds.  Canada is having diabolicals with their Upholders with only one in service some of the time, there is even a suggestion from some of their personnel, who have experience with the Collins class, that they regret that they didn't buy some when they had the chance.

geez, we dodged a bullet by not getting the Upholders as a second squadron.  I was at the DefProc when Adm Barrie gave the speech to all and sundry as to why we wouldn't - everything that was identified as a problem with them came true.  We analysed the Upholders closely - somewhere along the line the canucks had a brain fart and didn't do their homework.  I used to have that session on tape - it was about 2 hrs and detailed all the probs - they pulled no punches and there were RN and CN snrs present.

we'd be a golden mile worse off if we'd bought them as interims and a 2nd string act - replaing Collins with the Ups would have been a bigger nightmare.  Nice concept, but again (as with Collins/Gotland) you can't upscale/descale platforms and expect the numbers to extrapolate.  it doesn't work like that.

Disagree, the Type 209-1500 is actually inferior to the Collins in that it can not conduct many of the real world missions the Collins, and the Oberon before it, have been carrying out since the late 90's.  Start adding the new roles the Collins is being updated to carryout, i.e. special forces insertion (plus others I am not at liberty to discuss), the type 209 is simply too small and constrained to receive similat upgrades.  Discount the number of torpedoes and think in terms of space and weight, what can be carried inplace of some or all of the torpedoes......

 absolutely, the 209's aren't within a bulls roar of what we can do with collins.  bear in mind that the "janes" type data is just about meaningless and doesn't reflect anything close to the real world specs on performance.

At the end of the day what we have in service now is superior to any current serving, or in production, non nuclear sub in the world.  They are not as good as they could/should have been, they are starting to suffer reliability and obsolescents issues with old equipment and they are expensive to upgrade and maintain with the decission to layup one of the subs due to crewing issues now causing availability issues for the class. 

up until BYG, ADCAP/CBASS there was only one other large conventional that could challenge.  they're still a superior asset to even the scorpenes (at the systems and combat level).  considering that we were the first to actually get anechoic tiles to sit properly etc. and the fact that we can pull signatures which only the US can reach (with gear that costs 15 times more) - then they're a very underestimated asset

It can be argued that proper risk management could have seen the combat system changed for the last three or four boats during build and that the build could have been extended to eight hulls built in two batches of four over a longer period of time with the second four incorporating all the lessons tearned on the first four.  This would have avoided the majority of the availability issues we are encountering today as well as the need for urgent rectifications being rushed to incorporate changing requirements.

if someone had properly evaluated the integration issues in the first place then most of the hurt would have gone south.

 
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Aussiegunneragain       11/6/2009 11:39:27 PM

 absolutely, the 209's aren't within a bulls roar of what we can do with collins.  bear in mind that the "janes" type data is just about meaningless and doesn't reflect anything close to the real world specs on performance.


They aren't within a bulls roar when the Collins Class have worked as advertised which cuts out the entire first decade of their service after the Collins was commissioned. We could have had 209's in operation doing an acceptable job over that entire time, with a follow on sub like the 212's or 214's for better performance coming into service during this decade. That of course would never have occurred to the mighty ADF, who will inevitably poo poo the idea of accepting a platform that does 80% of what they want but which works if there is an opportunity to buy a customised one that has all the bells and whistles but which is a decade late at vast expense. We do "punch above our weight" and all that you know.
 
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hairy man       11/6/2009 11:40:03 PM
two batches of three may have even been better value than the way we chose.
 
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gf0012-aust       11/7/2009 1:07:50 AM





 absolutely, the 209's aren't within a bulls roar of what we can do with collins.  bear in mind that the "janes" type data is just about meaningless and doesn't reflect anything close to the real world specs on performance.







They aren't within a bulls roar when the Collins Class have worked as advertised which cuts out the entire first decade of their service after the Collins was commissioned. We could have had 209's in operation doing an acceptable job over that entire time, with a follow on sub like the 212's or 214's for better performance coming into service during this decade. 
they were a cold war construct, for the types of missions that we were doing - and what we viewed as a future, smaller subs were not attractive for the mission set.  the canadians had a similar view.  as good as the 21nn's were/are, I still don't regard them as being suitable for our work.  as it was, collins was a mule for the swedes to develop gotland - and thats one of the things that irritates me more than anything at the engineering level.  they were designed around a doctrine set of reaching out, going far and snooping long and doing it on nuke duty cycles.  none of the smaller subs were remotely close.  we either changed the doctrine set or went with large blue water subs.  doctrine was heavily influenced by Govt - and was supported by both sides even though Moores motivation for fixing them was initially politically motivated
That of course would never have occurred to the mighty ADF, who will inevitably poo poo the idea of accepting a platform that does 80% of what they want but which works if there is an opportunity to buy a customised one that has all the bells and whistles but which is a decade late at vast expense. We do "punch above our weight" and all that you know.

you'd be surprised at how many military procurement decisions are done by govt.  there are 3-6 different reviewing groups at each sign off - Govt is the only one that can veto at any stage - and they have and done on kit that the public never gets to "discuss" - let alone major capital ones like this.

one of the stuff ups we have with the C17's is directly related to the Govt making decisions without absorbing consideration of the speed of purchase.  ditto with abrams, ditto with elements of shornet, ditto with some of the ewarfare decisions.

in procurement, every step is lockstepped by multiple stakeholders - no one can move forward on a whim except the govt if they elect to exercise veto privileges.

like Volk, I can give horror stories of what the prev and the current govt have done and which has been gilded.  blaming the  military for the development process is not always approp.

however, universally everyone is glad combet is in the job, it would be good to see him eventually get the prime job as faulkner 'aint in there for the long haul
 
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sinoflex       11/7/2009 2:15:05 AM

Well Greece has refused delivery of their german built Type 212 on quality and performance grounds.  Canada is having diabolicals with their Upholders with only one in service some of the time, there is even a suggestion from some of their personnel, who have experience with the Collins class, that they regret that they didn't buy some when they had the chance.

geez, we dodged a bullet by not getting the Upholders as a second squadron.  I was at the DefProc when Adm Barrie gave the speech to all and sundry as to why we wouldn't - everything that was identified as a problem with them came true.  We analysed the Upholders closely - somewhere along the line the canucks had a brain fart and didn't do their homework.  I used to have that session on tape - it was about 2 hrs and detailed all the probs - they apulled no punches and there were RN and CN snrs present.
Apparently, at least one Canadian naval officer served aboard an Upholder during an exchange tour in the early 90s. 
 
I think a large part of Canada's decision to obtain the Upholders is that we basically got them in barter for free use of Canadian bases by British forces for training purposes.   Politicians and bureaucrats thinking they were clever.
 
 
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Aussiegunneragain    GF   11/7/2009 2:21:56 AM
I know about the Colin's long-range peactime electronic and acoustic intellegence, and special ops roles, and I know that they are important. However, the wartime role of  sea denial is the principal reason that we have a submarine force and ensuring that we had ongoing access to modern submarines that could do this should have been the primary consideration in the minds of planners in the early 80's. On this count they failed miserably and we went without an adequate submarine force for nearly a decade and had we one to war we might have lost as a consequence. IMHO that is an absolutely outrageous occurrace, even more so than the waste of money.
 
Existing subs like the 209 were entirely adequate for the wartime role and would have been better in the sense that they have smaller crews so you can have more boats at sea at a time. I'm also not convinced that a solution couldn't have been achieved to let them do the recon/special ops roles either. Apart from the option of getting the Germans to produce a stretched version, I don't see why we couldn't have just removed the combat systems and weapons from a standard 1500 to make room for it to operate entirely for special operations and elint sub. From what I've read the Cold War recon patrols in the South China see only occurred once a year for 6 weeks anyway, so not all of our submarines need to be fitted out in that manner. That puts aside the fact that we have other assets doing the elint role anyway, specifically the two EP-3C's.  
 
As for the politician's versus the military's role in procurement decisions, I know that the Minister is ultimately the boss but I also see daily the way that senior buereucrats influence decisions by deciding what information to provide and how to provide it. I have no reason to believe that military brass are any different. In the case of the Collins Class I suspect that the Governement of the day would have been committed to building the subs in Australia irrespective of what the ADF wanted. However, I find it very hard to believe that had the ADF come to the government and said "buying a completely untested design on top of having inexperienced australian companies build it is a recipe for operational and financial disaster. We can meet our core warfighting requirements using a tested sub and we have some other appraoches that will work for the recon role", that the Government would have persisted.
 
As for the recent quick OTS purchases like the the Globemasters and the Abrams, I know they have had some problems but it is generally just to do with a failure to ensure that the proper support services provided at the same time as the platform purchase. While that isn't good it is much more easily rectified than if a bleeding edge project is stuffed up, as it is just a matter of spending the money to get support gear which has already been developed. Comparing the Globemaster to the Wedgetail decisions and I know which approach I'd be supporting in in the future.
 
 
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gf0012-aust       11/7/2009 3:05:04 AM
I'm not going to add much detail beyond what I've said prev for a number of reasons.  However, the "EP's" don't have the same flexibility in ISR.  Or, more to the point, they cover off different points of tac and strategic importance.

there is a reason why only subs and SASR have discrete commands in the ADF.  again, IMO, small subs can't do the mission sets that we cover.

we can't afford to maintain deep blue and green subs, so the subs that can carry the sensor fit, have the distance, have the weapons persistence etc and go where we want them to (again, we have custodial responsibility for 1/9 of the earths total water real estate).

its not that very well known, but a lot of the IP that was developed in australia to get collins to their capability has been used and provided offshore.  we have the weapons, ewarfare, esystems and sensor smarts  in country, the issue is about managing scope creep and within the boundary of what the govt will spend.  in the case of collins, fixing a price to the vendor when we were implementing architecture concepts that wouldn't be realised until seawolf hit the water came with a price. fixing a price on the vendor when the very nature of weapons system development and architecture development was volatile was just stupid.   in a lot of areas - esp sensor and hull management, we were 15 years ahead of everyone except the americans - and even they hadn't got the tile fixing business down pat. in some areas, in drive management concepts we were ahead of the americans - that wasn't swedish input, that was stuff developed by ex submariners who knew how to do their job.

as for the C17's, there is a far bigger ferk up in the wings than what you state, but it will be ignored.  the impact is that the odds of getting more units is just about zero while everyone works out how to get over the embuggerance of applying rapid acquisition methodology to a platform that requires through life sustainment for 30-35 years.  because it was a rapid acq, someone dropped the ball - and on some of the very reasons why we bought them in the first place.

what we need is a combination of the Singaporean project management methodology crossed with the changes made within USN.

part of the problem is not understanding that the warfighters don't make ambit claims, but they do know that if they don't fight for what they actually need, then they end up with a hald arsed asset that a politician and a suit think is what they need (often with zero appreciation for what the task and need is, and often through a prism of thinking that they can equate if not transfer commercial business models to military procurement processes)  In contemp terms, Nelson was good at it.  Fitzgibbon was a woftam.

could we get smaller subs? sure.  but if the budget is low we're also expected to provide value for money and do everything.  telling ministers that you can't go off and do "x" because they didn't provide you with the capability is not something that they like hearing. they still expect both the sub service and the SASR to be jacks of all trades.  they're the ones who effectively sign off on doctrine - and in some cases have made the service chiefs rewrite things because it wasn't politically palatable.  the white paper (class version) is a stellar example of that.

I'm on one of the working groups in a week and halfs time :), so I guess all these things will be thrown into the hat. 

 
 
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Aussiegunneragain       11/7/2009 3:56:45 AM

part of the problem is not understanding that the warfighters don't make ambit claims, but they do know that if they don't fight for what they actually need, then they end up with a hald arsed asset that a politician and a suit think is what they need (often with zero appreciation for what the task and need is, and often through a prism of thinking that they can equate if not transfer commercial business models to military procurement processes).

I don't think its a matter of them making ambit claims. Its more a matter of them wanting assets that can do missions that they aren't being asked to undertake, because it is what is sexy at the time. The Army in the late 80's wanting to be able to deploy  brigade sized armoured formations to the Korean peninsula is one example. The Navy banging on about getting customised AWD's with 80 launch cells is another. Apart from land attack which we have a perfectly good airforce for, there is no need whatsoever for that number of cells for a  regional navy like ours. The uniforms approach acquisition like boys looking to have the biggest toy, and that isn't just an impression I've acquired through publicly available sources. 
could we get smaller subs? sure.  but if the budget is low we're also expected to provide value for money and do everything.  telling ministers that you can't go off and do "x" because they didn't provide you with the capability is not something that they like hearing. they still expect both the sub service and the SASR to be jacks of all trades.  they're the ones who effectively sign off on doctrine - and in some cases have made the service chiefs rewrite things because it wasn't politically palatable.  the white paper (class version) is a stellar example of that.

The Minister also isn't going to like hearing that he cannot only go off and do x but he or she can't do y or z either because the asset doesn't work properly yet despite having been in service for nearly a decade. IMO there is still a place for frank and fearless advice. Some Ministers don't want to hear it and there isn't much anybody can do about that, but I'm pretty sure that there are a few who do but don't get it because of agendas being run by their advisors.




 

 
 
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Volkodav       11/7/2009 4:07:14 AM
Wow I step outside to exchange colourful adjectives with my knob of a back neighbour and the thread takes flight. 
Took a while to catch up again but basically I am with gf on this as he knows more of the history of the sub project as well as the inner workings of the procurement system (having worked on both sides of the fence) than I.  My perspective from working on both a unique to Australia project involving extensive local industry involvement with design authority and a MOTS solution with local assembly is that often the unique project provides advantages that the MOTS solution can't.
 
To start with we won't have design authority for the MOTS solution, so if our operators have an issue that the parent defence force don't give bucklies about any fix will be very low priority if it get addressed at all.  Even when a timely solution can be implemented it will cost what ever they chose to ask and we will often find ourselves totally reliant the good will of the parent service.  The lack of control and flexibility can be extremely frustrating and lead to schedule delays while comparatively simple tasks get lost in transit.
 
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