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Subject: Should the RAAF divest non core capabilities to the other services?
Volkodav    10/17/2009 4:07:48 AM
Would Australia be better served if the RAAF,instead of retaining control of much of the ADF's diverse air capability, concentrated on and specialised in core strategic capabilities in strike, ISR, transport, as well as Continental Air Defence?

The non core capabilities, where the RAAF has little interest (other than the tasks are performed by aircraft), could be assigned to the services that depend on them. I am thinking of Maritime Patrol & Strike, Fleet air defence, CAS, FAC, battle field AD, tactical transport, strike and ISR.

The RAAF currently operates a variety of types that are a compromise to meet, in part, the requirements of the other services. Divesting the non core activities the RAAF could concentrate on equiping with the best gear to defend Australia and deter attack.

The Army and RAN could at the same time better intergrate the capabilities they need into their ORBAT's so they can better perform their current and future missions. An example would be Army Aviation employing a fixed wing light strike aircraft for CAS as well as operating the Caribou replacement.

Thoughts.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       10/17/2009 4:16:16 AM
Divesting RAAF capabilities wouldn't allow the RAAF to concentrate on core capabilities because the money pot isn't going to get any bigger. For instance, we currently use multi-role fighters and tactical bombers to conduct all pointy nosed tasks. IF the army is going to look after its own CAS where is it going to get the money from for a CAS specific aircraft? You also have to consider that by having the RAAF look after all fixed wing responbilities, we get significant syngergies in aircrew training, engineering expertise etc. I don't see this idea as a goer at all.
 
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Volkodav       10/17/2009 4:40:17 AM
True but at the same time the Army may be perfectly satisfied with the performance of an armed PC-9B in Afghanistan while the RAAF can not provide CAS as the HUG Bugs are seen as too valuable / over the top to send.
 
Air crew training would still be managed by the RAAF, as would certification etc.
 
It will be more expensive to start but IMHO in the long run it will be money well spent. The RAAF will be able to buy a mixed fleet of Air Superiority Fighters and Stategic Strike / Interdiction aircraft, as well as the required tanker transports, ISR and Command & Control asset's, they will also be able to deploy a ground based ABM capability.
 
The Army and RAN will control the air assets they rely on and will be able to demob capabilities that these organic air assets obsolete.
 
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Beryoza       10/17/2009 4:40:52 AM
Besides what Aussiegunner said, the Australian Army already handles some tactical transport (Black Hawk) as well as recce/light attack (Tiger). There's little point in assigning fixed winged CAS to the Army when Australia uses multi-role platforms.
 
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Beryoza       10/17/2009 4:42:43 AM
I'd be far more in favour of the ARA having organic CAS if dedicated assets (e.g. A-10s) were acquired, but that's highly unlikely.
 
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Volkodav       10/17/2009 4:49:59 AM
Besides what Aussiegunner said, the Australian Army already handles some tactical transport (Black Hawk) as well as recce/light attack (Tiger). There's little point in assigning fixed winged CAS to the Army when Australia uses multi-role platforms.
 
Helicopters are much more expensive to operate than fixed wing assets, this is in addition to having shorted range, lower speed and smaller payloads than a compariably roled fixed wing asset. Helo's are also less reliable, more are lost in accidents, as well as being more prone to loss following battle damage.
 
That aside helo's are extremely useful and can conduct tasks that fixed wing assets can not. What I am suggesting would result in a mix of fixed and rotary wing assets being operated, by the Army and RAN, each in their optomised role, resulting in greater capability and reduced cost.
 
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Beryoza       10/17/2009 4:57:43 AM

Besides what Aussiegunner said, the Australian Army already handles some tactical transport (Black Hawk) as well as recce/light attack (Tiger). There's little point in assigning fixed winged CAS to the Army when Australia uses multi-role platforms.
 

Helicopters are much more expensive to operate than fixed wing assets, this is in addition to having shorted range, lower speed and smaller payloads than a compariably roled fixed wing asset. Helo's are also less reliable, more are lost in accidents, as well as being more prone to loss following battle damage.

 

That aside helo's are extremely useful and can conduct tasks that fixed wing assets can not. What I am suggesting would result in a mix of fixed and rotary wing assets being operated, by the Army and RAN, each in their optomised role, resulting in greater capability and reduced cost.




No arguments from me regarding fixed v rotary winged characteristics, however, one very important consideration is the degree of infastructure both types require. Helicopters need a clearing whereas fixed wings need anything from a paved, hard, stretch of dirt, to a concrete runway and attending installations. That's one reason why I think the Hercs should stay with the RAAF.
 
Now, for other tasks, I would agree with you if we had some dedicated assets (e.g. if we picked up some A-10s, A-67s or a JDAM-configured Hawk, etc), but with multirole platforms (Hornet, Shornet, F-35) I doubt such a division would be a good idea. Even if individual squadrons were tasked with specialized missions (eg offensive/defensive counter air, recce, EW, SEAD/DEAD, CAS, interdiction, etc), it would be far simpler and more expedient to retain the assets in the one service.
 
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Beryoza       10/17/2009 5:05:40 AM
need anything from an un-paved, hard, stretch of dirt, to a concrete runway
 
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Volkodav       10/17/2009 5:14:07 AM
Something along the lines of Tactical and STOL to the Army, Maritime to the RAN and Strategic and non joint Tactical to the RAAF. Each service controlling and operating the gear most vital to conducting their missions.
 
The Caribou was used almost exclusively for Army support and some of the KingAirs the RAAF is using as an interim replacement are Army machines. It makes sense the Bou's replacement should be Army owned and operated.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       10/17/2009 5:42:46 AM
I frankly don't see the point in this idea at all. Irrespective of the service that they serve in we are going to have the same number of aircraft with the same number of pilots so a division would be a complete WOFTAM.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
 
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DropBear       10/17/2009 5:51:35 AM
The RAAF currently operates a variety of types that are a compromise to meet, in part, the requirements of the other services.
 
Where is this happenig within transport, strategic, tactical, inter-theatre or otherwise???
 
Army and Navy operate helos for medium airlift and seem happy to hitch rides on Boos, Hercs and C-17 for their other needs. Couldn't see those services operating and providing a better system than what the RAAF currently provides. Besides, easier to stream all major fixed wing aircrews through the one  course and there are financial savings having the system not split three ways.
 
Curious.
 
 
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Volkodav       10/17/2009 6:21:09 AM
Army and Navy operate helos for medium airlift and seem happy to hitch rides on Boos, Hercs and C-17 for their other needs. Couldn't see those services operating and providing a better system than what the RAAF currently provides. Besides, easier to stream all major fixed wing aircrews through the one  course and there are financial savings having the system not split three ways.
 
Curious.
 
Aircrew training would remain centralised or even become more centralised. Tactical transport (i.e. what ever replaces the Caribou) would mesh well with 5 Aviation Regt as would C/RC-12's, and AT-6's (or similar). Our bases are being rationalised into a smaller number of multi service super bases so rebasing is not an issue, it is already happening. What it would do is give each service greater controland say in the airpower assests that directly affect them. This will be a better system as the assets and their crews will be a part of the service they are directly supporting.
 
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south2       10/17/2009 8:54:25 PM
Honestly I dont think it is a good idea.  It will lead to a diversification of the number of airframes being used to attain the same tasks.  
 
I'll use fast jets as an example.
 
CAS, well yes I'm sure that our Army would love to have A-10's and AC-130's supporting them.   These platforms are of limited utility for other roles.  However, the money still has to come from somewhere, and it will likely lead to reduced number of tactical fighters.
 
Likewise Fleet air defence / Maritime strike.  Yep, we would end up with a number of assets, suitable for that role, which is going to take money away from the tactical fighters.  Would these guys, operated by the navy train for FAC?  Would they train for land based strike?  Are they going to be carrier capable, not to mention the cost that that will bring.
 
So likely what we would end up with would be 2 sqn of  RAAF operated fast jets.  1 short squadron of A-10's.  1 short squadron of AC-130's.  1 squadron of RAN operated fast jets.
 
If you compare that to what we have now, we have 4-5 Squadrons of fast jets that are adept in all of the roles you have proposed, and with a limited workup will be quite good at the roles they will be used in when in the AO.  Not to mention that they are also adept at DCA, OCA, BAI, self escorted Land based strike, etc. 
 
Alternatively if you take it further and propose that Maritime Patrol are going to be given to the navy, what happens to the P3's that are now being used and trained in ISR?  Does that mean that the army gets half the P3's and the Navy gets the other half?  Or now does the Navy have to support the Army with what was previously RAAF Assets?
 
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Volkodav       10/18/2009 2:53:10 AM
ISR: P-8 to the FAA, MC-12W (or similar) to the Army, EP-X and Wedgetail for the RAAF.
 
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south2       10/18/2009 5:08:36 AM
I'm still not getting it...
 
Why would the army be any better at FAC than the RAAF when the RAAF has had FACDU/4Sqn for as long as it has.  Indeed the formation of 4Sqn shows the RAAF's ongoing commitment to FAC/JTAC/Spec Ops.  These guys have a lot of experience and get constant feedback from the operators who do the job for real.
 
Why would the RAN handle Maritime Patrol / Strike better when the boys and girls at 92WG have been doing it for as long as they have.  What I was mentioning before is that the P3 operations in the MEO been doing a lot of overland ISR.  By your definition previously this is an Army support task, so should they be operated by the Army?
 
I honestly do not think that there would be any improvement in overall capability, if anything I believe it would promote interservice rivalry further as the money would be divided into smaller packages with more competition to get to it.  All this would do is to dilute the money out to where the money would be spent on smaller niche platforms (fixed wing light strike) that may suit the service that owns them but not the ADF as a whole.
 
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thruster       10/18/2009 7:53:56 AM
my 2c worth:
i reckon the key operational point to this issue is to ensure that the required asset is provided in a timely manner, regardless of who actually operates it.
this of course implies that theres no conflicting priorities.  good command and control should [theoretically] resolve that problem.
 
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