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Subject: Jaguar for Australia
Volkodav    8/14/2009 7:06:31 AM
During the late 60's and early 70's the RAAF used Avon Sabres as Lead In Fighter Trainers for the Mirage fleet. From this a requirement arose for a supersonic advanced trainer to replace the Sabres in this role. CAC developed the CA101 concept and the RAAF also looked at the SEPECAT Jaguar for the job with it being reported in Flight Magazine at the time that an order for 100 Jaguars was imminent.

Assuming the RAAF got its 100 Jaguars for use as LIFT, Strike and Recce platforms what would this have done to the structure of the RAAF and what would the follow on effects have been through to today?

My first thought is the RAAF would not have needed to specify a multi role fighter to replace the Mirage.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       8/14/2009 9:22:38 PM
I've always thought that if the RAAF was to become larger then moving from a multi-role/regional bomber structure to a fighter/light strike/regional bomber one would have been the way to go. The Jag would have been my pick for its good range/warload/STOL/austere environment/self-defence capabilities. Then we could have gone for specialised air superiority fighters like the F-15 to replace the Mirage. We wouldn't have used the Jag as a LIFT though, it was too complex a beast for that and that is why the Hawk was developed.
 
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Volkodav       8/16/2009 7:47:01 AM
Pretty much my thinking AG. The reason I suggested the LIFT role is that is what Flight Magazine said the RAAF was looking at them for as well as what the UK and France developed them for in the first place.
 
That said I realise that once in service the Jaguars would probably not be used much for training, other then maybe being the default first assignment for pilots aiming for Bombers or Air Superiority. i.e. they would be more an initial fighter / strike posting than a lead in trainer with the Battlefield Air Superiority mission added to their strike and recce repertoire. By Battlefield Air Superiority I refer to the French air force concept of using Jaguars to splash opposition helo's and support aircraft that try to interfere with our ground forces.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       8/17/2009 6:06:28 AM

Pretty much my thinking AG. The reason I suggested the LIFT role is that is what Flight Magazine said the RAAF was looking at them for as well as what the UK and France developed them for in the first place.

That said I realise that once in service the Jaguars would probably not be used much for training, other then maybe being the default first assignment for pilots aiming for Bombers or Air Superiority. i.e. they would be more an initial fighter / strike posting than a lead in trainer with the Battlefield Air Superiority mission added to their strike and recce repertoire. By Battlefield Air Superiority I refer to the French air force concept of using Jaguars to splash opposition helo's and support aircraft that try to interfere with our ground forces.


Correct, it started out as an advanced trainer design but the Hawk and Alpha Jet were developed when it became to complex for that task. I agree that it was a quite appropriate type to wallop aerial targets of opportunity (both identified visually and when picked up by radar), much like the Thud did during Vietnam.
Incidentally, I read in the old "Warplane" series that UK Jaguar pilots considered themselves elite because they did low level deep interdiction tasks without radar. I'm not sure that they would like the idea of the type being used as an "easier" stepping stone to other types ;-).

 
 
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Volkodav       8/17/2009 8:25:51 AM
I'm not sure that they would like the idea of the type being used as an "easier" stepping stone to other types ;-).
 
Or rather than easier, the crucible that cast, hardened and tempered combat pilots. They would carry our CAS, Fast FAC, and even OPFOR to give the fighter jocks the willies.
 
The radar equiped maritime strike Jaguars used by India are quite interesting, I wonder if the Blue Fox, or later Blue Vixen radar would fit?
 
The ultimate would be if we had bought Hermes, or Eagle in the 60's then we could have used Jaguar M.
 
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Lawman       8/17/2009 7:01:20 PM
I like the idea of an Aussie Jaguar purchase, though I would be concerned by the weak engines, which were enough of a problem in temperate European environments, let alone Australia. The lack of radar could also be a problem, since they would need to be able to hold their own against radar-equipped rivals (if they were deployed). The radar-equipped version might be a good solution to this, allowing them at least a reasonable air-to-air capability.
 
As an alternative to the Jaguar, the (C?)F-5A/B either in place of, or in addition to, the MB-326 could have been an option. The Canadian modified F-5A was pretty good, and could have fulfilled training (CF-5Bs), strike and recce roles, especially since the CF-5s use a modular nose, allowing switching between strike fighter and recce roles. In addition, the CF-5s would have been available much earlier, i.e. by the late sixties; this could allow a Vietnam deployment, so might attract some American financing...
 
Another good option, and in many ways more practical, would be the A-4 Skyhawk, which could be used for training roles, as well as strike missions (a task to which it was very well suited). A reasonably large purchase order would probably be practical, allowing them to be used for a multitude of roles - in many ways they would be the logical replacement for the Avon-engined Sabres. It would also allow for a common RAAF-RAN fleet, pooling assets, spares, etc... Obviously you would need an ab initio trainer, e.g. the T-34 or similar if you use the TA-4, but this might still be worthwhile.

If you have either Jaguars, CF-5s or Skyhawks, the Mirage fleet can focus on air-to-air, pending replacement. As the Mirages come up for replacement, a longer range type would be attractive - thus making the F-4 Phantom an attractive possibility. At the same time, the Canberra is replaced by the F-111, giving a long range strike capability, backed up by Phantoms, and then a shorter range tactical force (Jags, CF-5s or A-4s). The Air Force therefore gets a force structure balanced between high-end heavy-hitting assets (Phantoms and Pigs), and tactical lightweight strike fighters.
 
The end fleet for the late '70s and '80s would be:
 
- 1 Squadrons of F-111s (30 or so, to have a good size unit)
- 2 Squadrons of F-4s (60 or so), primarily for air-to-air, but fully strike capable.
- 3 Squadrons of Jaguars/CF-5s/A-4s (one for Butterworth), dual-roled for strike fighter and recce roles.
- 2 Reserve Squadrons of Jaguars/CF-5s/A-4s for training and DACT, but available for combat if needed.

For strike, I favour the rugged little Skyhawk, for air to air, either a radar-equipped Jaguar or CF-5 might be better, and for recce, I would definitely favour the Jaguar or CF-5. The Skyhawk might be an alternative to the MB-326 as well, though, hence a much larger order, and probably an Aussie production line. The mix of Skyhawk for training and strike roles, and the Mirage for fighter roles is a pretty well proven mix, as demonstrated by the Israelis.

 
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Aussiegunneragain       8/18/2009 5:54:35 AM

IMHO the only aircraft available at that time that was in the ballpark for competing with the Jaguar in the light strike role in terms of avionics, range and warload was the A-7. I prefer the Jag as it was much quicker (mach 1.6 vs mach .9) and had two engines for sustained over water operations, plus it was specifically designed to work in the STOL role in austere environments. The last two points were potentially very important in Australia's AO.

 
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BLUIE006       8/18/2009 6:31:04 AM
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Harrier GR.1/GR.3 , I've always thought they would have been quite useful in the DOA scenario, given Australia's large land mass there would be plenty of places close to the front lines for them to hide. 
   
Saab 37 Viggen would have been an interesting alternative to the Mirage ( although probably arrived too late)
 
As far as trainers go F-5A/B or F-5E/F anyone?
 
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Aussiegunneragain       8/18/2009 7:11:57 AM

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Harrier GR.1/GR.3 , I've always thought they would have been quite useful in the DOA scenario, given Australia's large land mass there would be plenty of places close to the front lines for them to hide. 

   

Saab 37 Viggen would have been an interesting alternative to the Mirage ( although probably arrived too late)
 

As far as trainers go F-5A/B or F-5E/F anyone?




The disadvantages in terms of range/payload and operational safety for the early Harriers would pretty much have offset any advantage that V/STOL would have given us. In any case the Jag's short/rough field capability would have allowed us to use them from smaller regional airfields close to the action with at least the same warload as a Harrier could carry.
 
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Volkodav       8/19/2009 7:45:55 AM
An enhanced export version of the Jag would have been the way to go with radar, uprated engines and over wing missile rails.
 
The flexibility of the Jag would have allowed the RAAF to reduce the number of fighter squadrons from 4 (5 including No. 79 Sqn) to 2 plus a combat capable OCU and the number of bomber squadrons from 3 to 1 plus a combat capable OCU. This would allow 4 to 5 squadrons and an OCU to be re-equiped with Jaguars, with another squadron and OCU if the RAN had aquired Hermes.
 
Following the Jaguar purchace the Mirage could be replaced with 50 F-15C with the F-111 retained in the heavy strike and recce role. Another option could have been to retain the leased Phantoms to replace the remaining Mirages and serve through to the late 80's, early 90's when they could be replaced with new build F-15(X) hybrid air superiority fighters incorporating many of the improvements introduced with the F-15E that we would buy to replace the F-111. This would leave us with single seat F-15 air superiority fighters, F-15E strike fighters and the Jaguar force.
 
.....one last thought....can the F-111, keep the Phantoms in the strike role until the B-1B became available in the mid 80's and replacing the Mirage with Eagles.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       8/19/2009 8:56:09 AM

Another non-Jag opton alternative might have been to keep the F-4E's and buy extra's once the F-111 came into service, but use them to replace the Mirage's in the air to air role. Then we could upgrade the Mirage's a la Kfir with J-79's, canard forplanes and perhaps a strike radar like Agave and transfer them to the light strike role. That would give us some commonalities with engines, a longer range and more capable air to air fighter while saving money by using the Mirage airframes in the air to ground role. The F-4's could then be replaced by F-15's and the Mirages by F-16's or F-18's from the mid-80's.

 
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albywan       8/19/2009 9:21:11 PM
How about the notion of a combined ANZAC air arm (in a dream world where the RNZAF actually did have a air combat wing...) with the Kiwis supplying their A4s (and the F16s they should have followed up with..)
 
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Volkodav       8/21/2009 7:02:20 AM
If the RAAF operated the Jaguar it would have made sense for the RNZAF to buy the Jaguar as well. Their Skyhawks entered service from 1969 so it would have required them to wait several years for the Jags. Maybe we could have cascaded them 20 or so Sabres to tide them over until the Jaguars were available.
 
Imagine an ANZAC Joint Jaguar Force, a joint OCU, 4 or 5 RAAF Sqn, 2 or 3 RN FAA Sqn, 2 or if we share training resources 3 RNZAF Sqn, operating a mix of non radar standard Jag's, an enhanced radar equipped model and a carrier capable version of the radar equipped model.
 
If we went for the Jag in the mid 70's building them through to maybe the early 90's, what would we be replacing them with now? Would it be the cheap option i.e. Gripen, or would we go the expensive option of JSF? Having had a high low mix for a couple of decades would we continue down that track or would we go for a single type? With Eagle, Jaguar and B-1B in service in 2010, what would we end up with going towards 2020?
 
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Volkodav       10/7/2009 7:25:14 AM
Just come across some interesting info, the Jaguar M flew in 1969, successfully completed carrier trials and then was dropped in favour of the inferior, more expensive Super Etendard. Basically the development work was done and had the UK decided to do so they could have easily retained Hermes, Centaur and Eagle as strike carrier into the 80's by adopting Jaguar M variants to replace the Sea Vixen and even the Buccaneer.
 
Could the Jaguar M have been operated successfully from HMAS Melbourne or, assuming she was transferred to the RAN in the late 60's, Hermes?
 
If the RAN FAA had a fleet of modern, capable Jaguar M in service would we have tried to maintain a CTOL carrier capability into the 90's or longer?
 
Had the UK gone for the Jaguar M to extend the lives of her old CVL's would they have delayed the Invincibles and redesigned them to operate Jaguar M's, i.e increased length, COSAG instead of COGAG propulsion and steam catapults, providing a viable, affordable CTOL option for the RAN?
 
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StevoJH       10/7/2009 10:39:16 PM
If wiki is to be believed the normal jaguar was 3-4 tons heavier then the largest aircraft to operate from melbourne (A4 and S2), since the M probably would have been heavier, could melbournes deck and catapult even support Jaguar M operations?
 
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Volkodav       10/8/2009 7:12:21 AM
StevoJH       10/7/2009 10:39:16 PM
If wiki is to be believed the normal jaguar was 3-4 tons heavier then the largest aircraft to operate from melbourne (A4 and S2), since the M probably would have been heavier, could melbournes deck and catapult even support Jaguar M operations?
 
The Jag was smaller and lighter than the Super Etendard, which Argentina operated from their Majestic Class CVL (apparently with some difficulty), which is why I wondered if it could operate from Melbourne. With the greater thrust and STOL ability of the design the Jaguar may actually have been easier to launch than the Super Etendard. I'm not saying that it would work only wondering if it would be practical.
 
I have put some more thought into the hypothetical of the RN FAA adopting the Jaguar. Seeing the writing on the wall for the CVA-01 program the RN retreated to the stand that, if the new carriers were unaffordable and the smaller Victorious, Hermes and Centaur could not be modified to operate the Phantom, the Phantom order should be cut to sufficient for only two operational squadrons to operate from Ark Royal and Eagle while the Jaguar should be ordered to serve on the three smaller carriers. This would have given the RN a critical mass of operational carriers into the 70's and more options to absorb additional cuts.
 
At this point the helicopter escort cruiser (that evolved into the Invincible Class) would have remained as originally intended, something more akin to Vitorio Venito or Moskva, with guns and missiles forward and a large helideck / hanger aft. The Bristols would have been built as a class as there were still carriers to escort. While the new carrier program would have been for a class of smaller Jaguar operating ships to replace Victorious and the CVL's while Ark and Eagle served into the early 90's.
 
At this point the Jaguar M would have received the same degree of effort that evolved the Harrier into the Sea Harrier FRS1 and then into the FA2 using similar systems and armament. Imagine a Blue Vixen equipped Jaguar armed with AMRAAM and ASRAAM, supported by Hawkeyes, operating from a class of 25-30000t CVLs during the mid 90's.
 
 
 
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