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Subject: And now for something completely different...RAAF chooses EE Lightning over Mirage.
Volkodav    5/24/2009 4:55:42 AM
The Lightning was a contender for RAAF how serious a contender I don't know. The main choice always seemed to be between the Mirage and the Lockheed Starfighter with the Phantom and Lightning being only bit players. The Lightning was apparently ruled out due to it's lack of ground attack capability, not that the Mirage was a wiz in the air to ground department either. The RR Avon and Ferranti Airpass radar of the Lightning were actually considered for the baseline Mirage III EO as they would have offered significantly improved performance. Imagine now that the RAAF had selected an evolved derivative of the Lightning. Would we have used it in Vietnam? What modifications and improvements would it have incorporated? What upgrades would it received during its life? What weapons would it have been certified for,i.e. Sidewinder, Paveway? What would the sale to Australia have meant for the program as a whole and then for the British and Austrlaian aviation industries?
 
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gf0012-aust       6/3/2009 8:32:22 PM
also, the RAN Oberons were the first SSG's....
 
there were any number of ways that Sverdlovs could have been killed.
 
Tartar/Terrier/Talos had been trialed against surface targets
Oberons (pre SSG conversion)
Oberon (SSG conversion)
 
The fuglys were also wired for Sparrows... Sparrows obviously worked when you look at the blue on blue accidents that happened with USAF and USN in Vietnam
 
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doggtag    interesting regading antishipping operations   6/4/2009 12:10:19 AM
Been very educational.
While I was looking at the merits of the RB04,
I was speculating what aircraft could've used it for Australian service.
The Viggen (at least in Swedish service) could obviously carry one under each wing.
 
A RAN Skyhawk, I'd be curious to know whether it could've held them outboard of the wheel wells due to the RB04's wingspan and weight (although the E model apparently had a reduced span: internet info seems sparse, thank the stars for books from the 1970s and 1980s!), and I'm wondering would it have still proven worth it to only be able to carry a single one on the Skyhawk, attached to its belly point...?
 
The pic on Wiki seems to indicate a Lansen could carry one under each wing (which the article supports),
but the Lansen had bigger wings (almost 43 feet) than the Skyhawk (just under 27 feet).
 
(pic from Wiki)
 
It's a safe assumption the aircraft would've been quite sluggish were it so equipped...
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Reading back about concerns over the Sabres vs their effectiveness against bombers or any other aircraft, plus surface attack,
I remembered this little gem... from a few old aviation books at home: the Swiss FFA P16... (can also be seen here... ).
Seems like it could outdone the Sabres (maneuverability?),
as it had impressive cannon firepower (two 30mm: the big high velocity 30x173s, not the short 30x113 ADENs and DEFAs),
a quite useful payolad (~5000 lbs),
very good thrust for its day (11,000 lbs),
good speed (>700mph),
and with a wing design (~37feet span) that matured into the Learjet family, which might have readily adapted to numerous types of ordnance, fuel tanks, even sensors into the early 1970s were it kept that long,
and apparently even had a measure of STOL/short field performance going for it.
 
That radome may have adapted better to a suitable radar set once the tech matured in those days (in a more elegant look than what those F-86Ds gave us).
 
I'd expect development would've seen it go quite further, even if not up to snuff with the Century series fighters' speeds by the late 1960s.
 
The wing seems like it easily could've been made strong enough to carry a pair of Rb04s (one each side), plus maybe a short range AAM for self defense (obviously something better than Falcons and more accurate than a salvo of unguided rockets).
 
I'm sure there are quite a few lesser-known books out there that can fill us in on aircraft programs and missile projects of the day (1950s, 1960s) that fell by the wayside, and certainly can add considerable fuel to the fires of discussion like these (as the WWW certainly seems to be lacking in these areas)...
 
Can anyone recommend any?
 
(On that note, could the Lansen have been made carrier-capable with folding wings?
The Skyhawk was small enough it didn't need them.
The P16's comparatively short field performance might've lent well to needing less assistance (lower catapult pressure?) for carrier launching, but that's providing that redesigning it with folding wings didn't stuff up the design...)
 
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Herald12345       6/4/2009 5:23:25 PM

Been very educational.

While I was looking at the merits of the RB04,

I was speculating what aircraft could've used it for Australian service.

The Viggen (at least in Swedish service) could obviously carry one under each wing.

This is LATE for Viggen. We are concerned with the 1955 to 1970 time-frame and we have to use what means are to hand and what is possible. The more i look at thos problem, the more I'm beginning to think that Buccaneer, Etendard, or Lansen are the strike half of a land based solution. Carrier borne A-4s will have to use WALLEYE as soon as it shows up. The carriers you have are the carriers you have. You can operate Sea Vixen off of them to supplement the Skyhawks. The Vixens can use Redtop and Firestreak which means they can handle SIDEWINDER, but not SPARROW which is a big ouch.
 
Recommended alterattions in RAAF/RAN service. Replace the GEC AL-18 air intercept radar with a better one- a version of Blue Falcon or Blue Parrot which can be adapted for blind bombing a la A-6 Intruder. Wire it, when you can for WALLEYE Mark 1, improved Bullpup  and RB04  and strengthen the two inner hardpoints to take the 600 kilogram loads.  
 

A RAN Skyhawk, I'd be curious to know whether it could've held them outboard of the wheel wells due to the RB04's wingspan and weight (although the E model apparently had a reduced span: internet info seems sparse, thank the stars for books from the 1970s and 1980s!), and I'm wondering would it have still proven worth it to only be able to carry a single one on the Skyhawk, attached to its belly point...?

One RB04 centerline. or left. I thought about that.  That is why I considered Sea Vixen.

The pic on Wiki seems to indicate a Lansen could carry one under each wing (which the article supports),

but the Lansen had bigger wings (almost 43 feet) than the Skyhawk (just under 27 feet).

 

(pic from Wiki)

 

It's a safe assumption the aircraft would've been quite sluggish were it so equipped...

 

 

 

 

Which is why it attacked like a WW II torpedo bomber (Cref Lansen article above). Against the threat actually faced at sea, or frankly overland in your AO, you could use a Cranberry with own developed glide  bombs and whack the blighters.  

Reading back about concerns over the Sabres vs their effectiveness against bombers or any other aircraft, plus surface attack,

I remembered this little gem... from a few old aviation books at home: the Swiss FFA P16... (can also be seen here... ).

Seems like it could outdone the Sabres (maneuverability?),

NED.

as it had impressive cannon firepower (two 30mm: the big high velocity 30x173s, not the short 30x113 ADENs and DEFAs),

a quite useful payolad (~5000 lbs),

very good thrust for its day (11,000 lbs),

good speed (>700mph),

and with a wing design (~37feet span) that matured into the Learjet family, which might have readily adapted to numerous types of ordnance, fuel tanks, even sensors into the early 1970s were it kept that long,

and apparently even had a measure of STOL/short field performance going for it.

That radome may have adapted better to a suitable radar set once the tech matured in those days (in a more elegant look than what those F-86Ds gave us).

NED.

I'd expect development would've seen it go quite further, even if not up to snuff with the Century series fighters' speeds by the late 1960s.

The wing seems like it easily could've been made strong enough to carry a pair of Rb04s (one each
 
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Herald12345       6/4/2009 11:43:41 PM
Recommended alterations in RAAF/RAN service. Replace the GEC AL-18 air intercept radar with a better one- a version of Blue Falcon or Blue Parrot which can be adapted for blind bombing a la A-6 Intruder. Wire it, when you can for WALLEYE Mark 1, improved Bullpup  and RB04  and strengthen the two inner hardpoints to take the 600 kilogram loads.  
 
Goofed. That should read ASV-121 or B-108, NOT Blue Falcon!
 
Herald 
 
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Volkodav       6/5/2009 8:26:33 AM
The Sea Vixen would be too large and heavy to operate from a Majestic Class CVL. Now had the RAN aquired a pair of Centaur class CVL's or even bought and modernised the two Implacable class armoured fleet carriers, in a similar fassion to HMS Victorious, the airgroup options would have increased to include a much wider range of aircraft.
 
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Herald12345       6/5/2009 10:07:06 AM

The Sea Vixen would be too large and heavy to operate from a Majestic Class CVL. Now had the RAN aquired a pair of Centaur class CVL's or even bought and modernised the two Implacable class armoured fleet carriers, in a similar fassion to HMS Victorious, the airgroup options would have increased to include a much wider range of aircraft.

Catapult, takeoff, and trap runs are long enough. (CREF above) Only limiter seems to be the lifts. What was the tonnage limit on those?
 
Herald
 
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DropBear       6/5/2009 11:54:47 PM
The biggest aircraft used was the Grumman S-2 Grey Grumbly, hence the deck lift would have to be able to handle a minimum of 19,000lbs. The MTOW of the Grumbly was a smidge over 29,000lbs. Not sure what pax would have been loaded onto the Grumbly down in the hanger prior to deck handling? I'm guessing it would be fuelled up on deck, hence the MTOW may not have been included in considering lift load tonnage?
 
 
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Herald12345    Found this.......   6/6/2009 4:27:38 PM

fitz    Colossus and Majestic   11/6/2004 1:21:16 AM

The Majestic class differed initially only in minor detail from the Colossus class, changed internally to suit a new messing scheme primarily, and to operate slightly heavier aircraft - 20,000 lb vs. 15,000 lb for a Colossus. During 1949-51 most Colossus were refitted to similar standard making the distinction between the two classes largely moot. Post-War though, not all Majestic/Colossus class ships were created equal, which is reflected in their various histories. As built a Colossus sported 15,000 lb lifts of 45 x 34 ft (20,000 lb and 54 x 34 ft on a Majestic), a 20,000 lb BH3 catapult (BH5 on some Majestics) and 10 arrester wires of 15,000 lb capacity (8-9 x 20,000 lb on a Majestic). Colossus class ships were brought up to Majestic spec by the early 1950's for the most part. From there though, things get more interesting. Canada's HMCS Bonaventure, a Majestic class unit was rebuilt with an 8-degree angled deck and 24,000 lb lifts as well as a 40,000 lb BH4 catapult, mirror landing aid and 6 x 20,000 lb arrester wires. And oh yes, a 14 ft longer flight deck. Bonaventure could operate jets. Her predecessor, HMCS Magnificent, also a Majestic class never got an angled deck or the other above mentioned upgrades and never operated jets. HMAS Melbourne received similar modifications as HMCS Bonaventure and could operate jets. In 1969 her flight deck was strengthened further and other modifications made to allow operation of the A-4 Skyhawk and S-2 Tracker. Her predecessor the Sydney, also of the Majestic class had not received those modifications and by 1961 was a troop and cargo ship. The Vikrant of the Indian navy recieved similar modifications as outlined above and again, could operate jets (Sea Hawks). If anything the big difference between the two classes is that most of the Majestics were suspended after the war and later completed to much-modified designs reflecting post-war realities. This shows in the Colossus class, where just 3 were ever given the necessary modifications to operate jets, and only one of those for the RN. Colossus was modified with a 4-degree angled deck in 1957 while in service with the French but operated turboprop ASW aircraft and helicopters, not jets. HMS Glory of the Colossus class saw extensive combat in Korea with piston engined aircraft but never got an angled deck and never operated jets. Same with HMS Ocean and Theseus. When HMS Vengeance was sold to Brazil she was refitted with a 6-degree angled deck, steam catapult, larger Majestic-type lifts, strengthened flight deck of much greater area and mirror landing aid in the hopes of operating jets but never operated anything more menacing than the S-2 Tracker. She gained 1,800 tons of full load displacement in the process. HMS Warrior was the last Colossus completed for the RN and thus saw more modification than others, receiving a slightly angled deck, moderately strengthened flight deck, mirror landing aid and the stronger arrester gear of Majestics completed for foreign service. Transferred to Argentina as Independencia in 1958, she was withdrawn in 1970 in favor of the much more capable Colossus class Vienticinco de Mayo (ex-Karel Doorman, ex-Vengeance). She was by far the most heavily modernized of the Colossus class. She was by no means however, identical to the Melbourne as stated by someone earlier. Island structure and flight deck arrangements for example were very different. If anything de Mayo most closely resembles the Brazilian Minas Gerais, whose modernization was also performed in the Netherlands. Further, in 1981 de Mayo had its catapult lengthened and deck area increased to allow 2 more deck park spots in order to operate Super Etendard. And for the record, Vienticinco de Mayo did not stay home during the Falkland's conflict, though she was unsuccessful in attempts to locate and then attack the RN Task Force before being sent home, allegedly with a machinery casualty.


The deck lifts we have data for are 10 ton capacity, trap arrester wire capacity on the class was originally 10 ton and the catapult (assumed as a BH-4 ) is a 17 ton capacity sling load


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Volkodav       6/8/2009 4:00:15 AM
Why limit the capability of the FAA by retaining the Majestics as CVL's? Like I said earlier their were two Implacables available for modernisation as well as a couple of Hermes / Centaur class on the stocks that could have been completed too a similar standard as HMAS Hermes.
 
There were a number of capabilities that had their continued relevance proven in Korea carrier being one of them. It would have been common sense for the RAN to look to acquiring enhanced platforms from which to operate a reasonable number of up today aircraft without needing too many more personnel.
 
Either of the above options would permit the operation of Buccaneer, Sea Vixen and maybe even Crusader or Super Tiger and would have provided flattops for the RAN through to the early 90's. I'm not sure but maybe the F/A-18A could have flown from the Implacables? Super Etendard and JaguarM would be a cinch
 
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Herald12345       6/8/2009 12:17:09 PM

Why limit the capability of the FAA by retaining the Majestics as CVL's? Like I said earlier their were two Implacables available for modernisation as well as a couple of Hermes / Centaur class on the stocks that could have been completed too a similar standard as HMAS Hermes.

Okay you just bought the "Hermes" as the HMAS Melbourne  and  the "Monmouth" as the HMAS Sydneyand prdered tham with angled decks UK BH 4 40 ton steam catapults and the bells and whistles. This is what you would have.
 

HMS Hermes (R12) is the standard.

(Modified Centaur Class, ex Elephant)
 
As modified.

Displacement: 23,000 tons standard ; 27,800 tons full load
Dimensions: 774.75 oa x 147.9 x 27.8 feet
Propulsion: 4 Admiralty 3-drum boilers, 2 shafts, Parsons geared turbines, 76,000 shp
Speed: 28 knots
Range: 5,040 nmiles at 20 knots ; 3,500 tons fuel oil
Complement: 2100 (including air group)
Aviation Facilities: 365 x 62 x 17.5 ft hangar ; 744.5 x 144.5 ft 8-degree angled flight deck ; 5 35,000 lb arrester wires ; 2 BS4 50,000 lb steam catapults at bow ; 2 35,000 lb lifts, 54ft long x 44ft wide aft. (25 second cycle) and 54 x 35 ft portside deck-edge (30 second cycle) ; 332,000 gallons aviation fuel (AVCAT)
Aircraft: 28
Armament: 5 twin Bofors 40 mm ; 4 single 3 pdr saluting guns
Armour: 1 to 2 inch flight deck
Radars: 3D Fighter-control - Type 984 ; Air/Surface Search - Type 293Q ; Carrier Approach - Type 963
 
Built by Vickers-Armstrong, Barrow-in-Furness. Laid down 21 June 1944. Launched 16 February 1953. Laid up awaiting completion until 1957. Completed 18 November 1959. Flight deck recognition letter: M and S .

There were a number of capabilities that had their continued relevance proven in Korea carrier being one of them. It would have been common sense for the RAN to look to acquiring enhanced platforms from which to operate a reasonable number of up today aircraft without needing too many more personnel.

You need a thousand men. Where do you get them? You must give up three destroyers and or rigatres.

Either of the above options would permit the operation of Buccaneer, Sea Vixen and maybe even Crusader or Super Tiger and would have provided flattops for the RAN through to the early 90's. I'm not sure but maybe the F/A-18A could have flown from the Implacables? Super Etendard and JaguarM would be a cinch
 
At that late date I would prefer Jaguar M. Good aircraft. 


 
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