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Subject: And now for something completely different...RAAF chooses EE Lightning over Mirage.
Volkodav    5/24/2009 4:55:42 AM
The Lightning was a contender for RAAF how serious a contender I don't know. The main choice always seemed to be between the Mirage and the Lockheed Starfighter with the Phantom and Lightning being only bit players. The Lightning was apparently ruled out due to it's lack of ground attack capability, not that the Mirage was a wiz in the air to ground department either. The RR Avon and Ferranti Airpass radar of the Lightning were actually considered for the baseline Mirage III EO as they would have offered significantly improved performance. Imagine now that the RAAF had selected an evolved derivative of the Lightning. Would we have used it in Vietnam? What modifications and improvements would it have incorporated? What upgrades would it received during its life? What weapons would it have been certified for,i.e. Sidewinder, Paveway? What would the sale to Australia have meant for the program as a whole and then for the British and Austrlaian aviation industries?
 
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Herald12345    Man the Hustler was a DOG.   5/26/2009 12:06:18 AM
Ever wonder why the USAF retired it PDQ? Engine pressure differential in flight, unexplaned yaw stalls in flight, and an unusual for type accident rate (worse than the Hun) made it a pilot killer. It was also a maintenance horror..
 
The F-106 had many virtues and two fatal flaws: Its Hughes FCS and the SAGE interface didn't work and its primary missile, the FALCON, was a joke.
 
Other than that, they were fine planes. 
 
I wish the RAAF had stuck with the SAAB Draken.It would have forced Martin to do two things to Bullpup.
a. Fix that damned fuse. It never worked right.
b. Replace base flares and radio LoS telecommand with inertial guidance and am E/O pilot interfaced steering unit.
 
Herald.  
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Tactical Dart etc   5/26/2009 5:57:31 AM
As it happens I started a thread on the very issue of converting the Delta Dart into a tactical fighter a few years ago onto the FBR board and think it would have worked really well, with excellent performance and range. It would have been fitted with a gun and fuel where the bay was and sink 4 Sparrows in the fuselage, with 2 Sidewinders on each wing. For avionics a NASARR would have been just the thing and it might have even taken a reasonable air to ground load.
 
As for the F-105, that is my favourite jet of all time. It had a great bombload, a good avionics fit (once they sorted out the bugs), an excellent self defence capability and was ferkin fast at low level! I just can't get past the idea of being in the pit of one of those big buggers at low level and hitting the burners to leave anything that is following in the dust.
 
As it is though the USAF quickly worked out that the F-4 could do the job of either type, nearly as well in some respects and better in others. Rather than going for a less flexible mix and spending all that development money on the Tactical Dart, wouldn't we have been better off just to follow their example?
 
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Volkodav       5/26/2009 9:27:12 AM
The F-4 is a legend however the slatted F-4E wasn't available until the late 60's early 70's where as the F-105 and F-106 were available a decade earlier. Maybe a Phantom buy during the mid to late 70's to supplement the Darts and Thuds replacing the older airframes while the lower hour platforms were upgraded to serve into the 80's?
 
Dart and Thud for the 60'sthrough to the 80's being replaced with F-15C's, Phantom for the 70's through to the 90's being replaced with F-15E's.
 
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DropBear    Herald   5/27/2009 4:38:46 AM
I wish the RAAF had stuck with the SAAB Draken.It would have forced Martin to do two things to Bullpup.
a. Fix that damned fuse. It never worked right.
b. Replace base flares and radio LoS telecommand with inertial guidance and am E/O pilot interfaced steering unit.
 
I'm afraid I don't follow. What has the Draken in RAAF service got to do with the Bullpup design?
 
Curious and confused.
 
 
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Aussiegunneragain       5/27/2009 5:47:43 AM

The F-4 is a legend however the slatted F-4E wasn't available until the late 60's early 70's where as the F-105 and F-106 were available a decade earlier. Maybe a Phantom buy during the mid to late 70's to supplement the Darts and Thuds replacing the older airframes while the lower hour platforms were upgraded to serve into the 80's?

Dart and Thud for the 60'sthrough to the 80's being replaced with F-15C's, Phantom for the 70's through to the 90's being replaced with F-15E's.

Even the earlier versions of the Phantom were better all-rounders than the F-105 and F-106, thats why the USAF took it on to replace the production of both after the unified fighter contest. The USAF started to get its F-4C's from 1963. We would have probably had to wait to get hold of some but I think it would be worth it. I personally think we should have gone for a high-low mix of 60 or so Mirage 111's from the early 60's with procurement switching to F-4's. It worked well for the Israelis so I'd say it would have been perfect for us.

 
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doggtag       5/27/2009 11:07:13 PM

I wish the RAAF had stuck with the SAAB Draken.It would have forced Martin to do two things to Bullpup.

a. Fix that damned fuse. It never worked right.

b. Replace base flares and radio LoS telecommand with inertial guidance and am E/O pilot interfaced steering unit.
 

I'm afraid I don't follow. What has the Draken in RAAF service got to do with the Bullpup design?

 

Curious and confused.


 


I'm sure he was thinking along the lines of what other western guided air-to-surface munitions would have been available for your 'Roo Drakens, other than dumb bombs, so they could perform as anything other than principally air-air fighters.
Buy French (Matra?) AS.20s and AS.30s?
Sweden's own RB04... and RB05?
Unguided rockets?
 
(yeah, yeah, I know, Wiki... entries, but that Draken 35 MOD Level 4 sounds like it might have been pretty interesting...)
 
And if you were going to go with Swedish aircraft there, why not then upgrade later to the Viggen instead, with SkyFlash AAMs later on instead of the troublesome Sparrows?
Your pilots might have liked the 37's STOL performance and ability to operate under austere conditions (although the Scandanavian winters that Viggens operated in and summers in Australia are two entirely different extremes, so the aicraft may have needed extensive environmental upgrades).
And certainly that beefy 30mm KCA would've quelled any naysayers in the surface attack role.
 
 
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DropBear       5/28/2009 12:57:33 AM
I'm sure he was thinking along the lines of what other western guided air-to-surface munitions would have been available for your 'Roo Drakens, other than dumb bombs, so they could perform as anything other than principally air-air fighters.
 
Quite. I just thought it curious that us owning Draken would force an American company to fix up a dud design. Martin could have done samd we gone with a Yank or Anglo-French plane as well.
 
I have often wondered why the decision to replace the Sabre could not have been put off for a few more years (the choice to go with the Miracle was made before many other options like F-4 came along) to encompass a wider variety of higher capability strike fighters, or indeed why, if not replace the Sabre in the timeframe that we did, opt for the F-100 Hun.
 
It seems that whilst historically we have opted for short-legged interceptors and longer ranging bombers, that we then decided on a paradigm shift post-Miracle IOC to halve the fleet of 116 and use the latter 50 as ground attack capable. Wwas this done when we already had the bomb trucking Cranberry in service with a view to replace same with the new fangled Pig? Why dilute the number of fighter/interceptors and ultimately have an overlap of three strike/bombers?
 
What value would having Miracle, cranberry and Pig all dropping iron at the same time achieve in a doctrinal sense?
 
Granted, the Cranberry was soon relegated to photo/survey mapping duties until about 1982ish, but it still seems like overkill.
 
However, if we had decided earlier on (around the Malayan/Korean confrontations) to replace the Sabre with a multirole fighter that was to be used in ground attack roles then surely the F-100 would have been a serious option. Rugged and reliable (as to the usual bug fixes) and not as complex as the other century Series. Capable of firing 4xAIM-9 as well as the usual A2G loads. The transitional timeline would have fitted with the Sabre replacement and we would have gotten a platform that allowed crews to become familiar with higher performances several years before we actually did once the Miracle came to be.
 
Food for thought.
 
 
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Herald12345    Bullpup missile   5/28/2009 4:59:17 AM

I wish the RAAF had stuck with the SAAB Draken.It would have forced Martin to do two things to Bullpup.

a. Fix that damned fuse. It never worked right.

b. Replace base flares and radio LoS telecommand with inertial guidance and am E/O pilot interfaced steering unit.
 

I'm afraid I don't follow. What has the Draken in RAAF service got to do with the Bullpup design?

 

Curious and confused.


 

 
As a guided weapon the Bullpup was the SIMPLEST A2G guided weapon we could build around the time the Draken was built. With a Navy pilot trying to use it the Bullpup was designed to be aimed through the ginsight. That was a Human factors mistake. We should have aimed it using the later technique we developed for WALLEYE.
 
Like many SAAB aircraft, there is a lot of AMERICAN  technology that went into the Draken. Wiring her for something like TV asuning and a F&FG profile missile would have been possible.
 
She was coded for the SIDEWINDER and FALCON. Naturaly she carried some of the same family of American gravity bombs and guided missiles of the era. 
 
Anyway the China Lake gang who have given us so much should have been able to fix BULLPUP. That was a Navy/ Martin foulup.when they adopted the German HS 293 type of steered aim. Norman Kay was a better engineer than the guys at Martin or the guys at Henschel.
 
Herald
 
 
 
 
 

 
 
Bullpup needed an upgrade that would allow it to selfguide A2G woth a SARH feature. The radio command link should have been through the radar instead of the gunsight.  
 
 
 
 
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DropBear       5/28/2009 6:12:55 AM
Herald,
Thanks.

 
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Volkodav       5/28/2009 9:18:47 AM
I have often wondered why the decision to replace the Sabre could not have been put off for a few more years (the choice to go with the Miracle was made before many other options like F-4 came along) to encompass a wider variety of higher capability strike fighters, or indeed why, if not replace the Sabre in the timeframe that we did, opt for the F-100 Hun.
 
Probably because of the 26 Tu-16's, ten MiG-19's and twenty MiG-21's Indonesia ordered from the USSR in 1961. I know things changed radically in 1968 in Indonesia but we were not to know that in 1960. Maybe an early buy of F-106's in 1961 or 1962 could have allowed the Sabre to be retained as an attack type until the early 70's when a number of other options would have been available, say Phantom, Jaguar, A-4M, A-7, or even A-10.
 
During the late 60's / early 70's the RAAF had 5 fighter squadrons 3, 75, 76, 77 & 79 and 3 bomber squadrons 1, 2 & 6 for a total 8 squadrons. Say 2 or 3 squadrons of interceptors, 2 or 3 of attack aircraft and 2 or 3 of high performance fighter attack or dedicated strike aircraft; maintaining 3 different types would be quite feasable, especially if some level of systems commonality could be achieved between the types.
 
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