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Subject: 2009/2010 Budget
StevoJH    5/12/2009 8:30:54 AM
What do you guys think of the numbers, they look kind of insane to me. Running up 220 Billion in debt within 2 years, thats equivilent to 75% of this years expected government revenue. Another thing i noticed was that since the 07/08 budget "general government services" has increased its budget from $32.2 billion to $80.4 billion, how does that happen. Other major increases are "community services and culture" as well as education, both of whoms budgets will have doubled since last year. What are these people thinking? Steve
 
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Volkodav       5/19/2009 6:30:06 AM
The stupid thing about MCW is that all we are doing is letting the Government taking our money off us and giving it back to spend on what we could have spent it on ourselves anyway. This is incredibly expensive in administration costs and the taxes that have to be raised destroy the incentives for businesses and individuals to generate economic growth and jobs. It is the function of the bribe culture dominating Australian politics which appeals to middle class greed and affluenza.
 
Now this I agree with although you left out the bit about the handouts artificially increasing demand and inflating prices. This is a double whammy for families that pay their own way, in particular many dual income families whose combined income makes them ineligible for MCW while single income families on higher incomes (until last year) remained eligible for payments and support such as the Family Benefit Part B. This led to the ludicrous situation where a working couple with children had to pay higher costs for necessary services which had gone up to absorb the very same government subsidies they weren't eligible for while their taxes were paying for the subsidies received by other families, some of them significantly better off than they.
 
This is not envy this is anger, why should a working couple on a combined income of less than $120000 p/a who have worked and saved to pay their own way have to subsidise single income families on $149999.99 p/a? This is the situation we were in last year while my wife was on unpayed maternity leave and then worked part time before returning to full time this year. It was even worse before the means test came in 1July last year.
 
While Labors changes last year saw some money head our way this year and also cut benefits to many high income earners who had previously been subsidised, I would have personally been happier to see MCW cut altogether to eliminate the waste you outlined above. It will take time but I hope the pendulum is starting to swing back towards sanity in that welfare is only used to support those who truly need it.
 
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StevoJH       5/19/2009 7:04:51 AM
To the person that stated that we would be going into deficit no matter what was spent i'd like to point to the revenues predicted in the budget for the last three budgets, and compare them to the total spending.
 
07/08, 08/09, 09/10 (billion)
Revenue: 247, 319.5, 291
Expenses: 236, 292.5, 338.2

And i still want to know what "general government services" are, since they sucked up most of the increase between 07/08 and now so far.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       5/19/2009 7:10:04 AM
Now this I agree with although you left out the bit about the handouts artificially increasing demand and inflating prices.

You won't hear me disagreeing on that though the changes in demand can also take the form of temporary but damaging distortions rather than permenant changes. All those idiots who think they are getting free money in the form of the First Home Owners grant are about to find this out the hard way when the value of their overpriced plummets below what they borrowed in 6 or 12 months time, due to the recession and the removal of the grant. Many of them who are out of a job or who get their loans called in will go bankrupt. Its a tough lesson but the precedents are out there and people still make the same poor decisions, so whaddya do?

This is a double whammy for families that pay their own way, in particular many dual income families whose combined income makes them ineligible for MCW while single income families on higher incomes (until last year) remained eligible for payments and support such as the Family Benefit Part B. This led to the ludicrous situation where a working couple with children had to pay higher costs for necessary services which had gone up to absorb the very same government subsidies they weren't eligible for while their taxes were paying for the subsidies received by other families, some of them significantly better off than they.
 
This is not envy this is anger, why should a working couple on a combined income of less than $120000 p/a who have worked and saved to pay their own way have to subsidise single income families on $149999.99 p/a? This is the situation we were in last year while my wife was on unpayed maternity leave and then worked part time before returning to full time this year. It was even worse before the means test came in 1July last year.
 
You are forgetting that a single income family on $149999.99 p/a is paying a considerably higher tax burden both in reletive and absolute terms than you are in the first place. I personally think it is a travesty that somebody who is smart and hard working enough to earn that sort of money should pay a 25% higher marginal income tax rate than a couple who between them earn the same amount. The fact that people in Australia think that this is ok just goes to show that envy IS the root of this problem and they need to get over it. People with that sort of talent and commitment deserve to keep their money and the favourable family tax benefits really just redress this. 

While Labors changes last year saw some money head our way this year and also cut benefits to many high income earners who had previously been subsidised, I would have personally been happier to see MCW cut altogether to eliminate the waste you outlined above. It will take time but I hope the pendulum is starting to swing back towards sanity in that welfare is only used to support those who truly need it.

Then we end up agreeing furiously on the utopian outcome, if for different reasons. However with this mob in I don't think that this is going to even start to happen. Welfare spending will just grow at the lower to middle part of the range and taxes will grow at the middle to higher end. The folk at the bottom end will have less incentive to work hard because they would lose their benefits and the folk at the top will have less incentive to work hard and invest, because they would just get their money taken off them anyway. Recession aside both the rich and the poor be poorer than they otherwise would have been. At least under Coaliton policy everybody got richer in absolute terms ... the rich just got richer quicker. I personally don't really care if somebody else is better off than me so long as am better off myself and I have no time for a Government that is going to stifle all of our chances because it capitalises on envy politics, and I have no time for a large proportion of the public that provide that sort of Government with the support that it needs to do this.

 
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Volkodav       5/19/2009 8:18:17 AM
I personally don't really care if somebody else is better off than me so long as am better off myself and I have no time for a Government that is going to stifle all of our chances because it capitalises on envy politics, and I have no time for a large proportion of the public that provide that sort of Government with the support that it needs to do this.
 
Another point of agreement. I have no issue with people being successful as the fact that others can make it is often the inspiration for people to give it a shot themselves. I have a major issue with people being carried, especially at the expense of others and little annoys me more than the constant disinsentive to put in and better yourself.
 
I do believe the community in general is moving towards this view which will remove the incentive for the government to bribe the electorate. With the GFC people are more concerned with keeping their jobs than getting feel good money from the government.
 

 
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Volkodav   5/19/2009 9:16:30 AM

I do believe the community in general is moving towards this view which will remove the incentive for the government to bribe the electorate. With the GFC people are more concerned with keeping their jobs than getting feel good money from the government.
I hope you are right. I've become a bit jaded at what I've seen of Australian community attitudes over the last 20 years. The article below gives me some hope that people do "get it" about the fact that we can't afford to keep doing what we are doing with vote buying and MCW, and that we need take a longer term view.  I just wish people would develop a better understanding about the fact that the private sector does most things better than the Government and that we should be looking to reduce rather than increase Government involvement in the economy, as we currently are doing.
 
Voters want infrastructure spending over more handouts: Newspoll
LiveNews | Joel Labi

Most voters do not want the government to hand out any more cash payments, instead pushing for more spending on infrastructure.

The latest Newspoll has recorded a 5 per cent dip in Labor's primary vote, with many Australians questioning the handling of the economic downturn.

Newspoll Chief Executive Martain O'Shannasey says almost half of voters also want the government to axe tax cuts in next week's budget.

"Seventeen per cent of people would prefer to see cash payments to individuals while 78 per cent would rather see the money spent on infrastrucutre.

"On the question of should we go ahead on the income tax cuts, people are pretty evenly divided."

 
 
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