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Subject: Our defenceless force
Volkodav    3/30/2009 8:56:45 PM
I wonder if the new white paper will be any better than previous efforts or whether we will see more of the same. Cameron Stewart | March 31, 2009 Article from: The Australian IF there were a moment when the fragile relationship between Joel Fitzgibbon and the defence establishment finally snapped, it might have been the surprise attack the minister launched on his own flock in Brisbane last October. On that day Fitzgibbon did what previous defence ministers have rarely done: he gave his own defence force a blunt public spray about its big-picture priorities and its lack of preparedness for battle. Fitzgibbon was angry about not having the option of deploying the army's Black Hawk helicopters into Afghanistan. The minister had been taking political heat over an inadequate number of NATO medical evacuation choppers available for Australian troops at their base in Tarin Kowt, in Oruzgan province. "If we do see a strategic and tactical justification for sending Black Hawks to Afghanistan tomorrow, we would be unable to do so as they lack the electronic warfare self-protection they require," Fitzgibbon lamented. "We spend a lot of time thinking and talking about important capability as we look far out into the future, but we seem to spend much less time talking about the capability we need to do the things we do right now and on a regular basis." The minister's comments broke the rules of keeping such criticism in-house. Defence likes to see its ministers keep a stiff upper lip in public, confining any criticism to private meetings. Fitzgibbon put his department offside on that day, but he also made a telling point. Few Australians are fully aware that tens of billions of dollars' worth of front-line weaponry from the navy, air force and army cannot be sent to war today unless it is a low-level, low-risk operation. As the Government puts the finishing touches to the new defence white paper, it is gearing up for a public relations blitz about the futuristic, sleek and powerful Australian Defence Force of tomorrow. What the Defence Department won't tell you is that, as things stand, most of Australia's warplanes and ships cannot be sent to any conflict involving an opponent with a half-decent air defence system and modern anti-ship missiles. Across the entire ADF, an alarming amount of expensive military equipment is not in a suitable upgraded condition to be sent to war. This is the legacy of project mismanagement and a Defence Department mindset that focuses more heavily on the defence force of tomorrow than on the force of today. "It really is amazing how little (equipment) can be actually deployed overseas when we have a defence budget of more than $22billion," says Andrew Davies, an analyst withthe country's premier independent military think tank, the Australian Strategic Policy Institute. Former senior defence official Allan Behm agrees: "I think the public would be absolutely astonished and gobsmacked to think we spend so much on defence every year and yet we can't send much (of) it into harm's way because it won't work or will not survive in acontest." As the Government considers its military options for an increased role in Afghanistan, the frustration of the Rudd Government at the depleted state of the ADF is growing. An investigation by The Australian reveals just how ill-prepared the ADF is for an immediate crisis. It finds much of the defence force's most powerful weaponry is awaiting future upgrades or promised replacements and is useful only for training purposes or deployment on operations where there is little or no risk of high-level conflict. This problem needs to be seen in context. No defence force keeps its entire inventory on war footing; such a practice would be prohibitively expensive and pointless when no enemy is apparent. All Western defence forces, including the ADF, are in a constant state of transition with armoury being upgraded and replaced as it becomes obsolete. But this long-term upgrading process must be balanced against existing requirements and future short-term contingencies. Experts say this balance has been lost. "The problem with readiness planning has arisen because of peacekeeping and other short-notice commitments (that) have seen us having to deploy assets quickly and put them in harm's way," says Daniel Cotterill, a defence analyst with Hill and Knowlton and until recently Fitzgibbon's chief of staff. "There is a bias within defence towards investing in the future force rather than giving government the fully functioning options they really need today." For example, if Australia were asked to provide warplanes for an immediate operation against a country with a functioning air defence system, it could not do so. The F-111 strike bomber, which will be retired next year, can't be deployed to a hot war zone because it has insufficient electronic warfare self-protection and is too easily detected by ene
 
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neutralizer       4/2/2009 3:43:02 AM

What's this thing about Blackhawks for casevac?  Sooo old fashioned, sensible armies like UK use Chinooks, they carry not just a inf/RAF regt sect for a bit of protection while on the ground but more importantly 2 medical specialist doctors (trauma and resusitation), plus about 4 nurse/meddio types and undertake life sustaining treatment in flight.  It also means they can carry several casualties, not an unusual requirement with IEDs. If I was the Minister I'd be asking why this wasn't being done, but perhaps no one's got around to telling him it's the modern way.

 
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gf0012-aust       4/2/2009 3:55:22 AM

 

What's this thing about Blackhawks for casevac?  Sooo old fashioned, sensible armies like UK use Chinooks, they carry not just a inf/RAF regt sect for a bit of protection while on the ground but more importantly 2 medical specialist doctors (trauma and resusitation), plus about 4 nurse/meddio types and undertake life sustaining treatment in flight.  It also means they can carry several casualties, not an unusual requirement with IEDs. If I was the Minister I'd be asking why this wasn't being done, but perhaps no one's got around to telling him it's the modern way.


are you even remotely capable of having dialogue without turning into some form of mealy mouthed  pissant?

if you knew the minister you'd know the problems we face.

I have a lot of time for your knowledge, but your constant digs at every opportunity wears a little thin, so for gods sake get over it, it's become tiresome.  its starting to make you look like a troll.
 
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Aussie Diggermark 2       4/2/2009 11:00:29 PM

What's this thing about Blackhawks for casevac?  Sooo old fashioned, sensible armies like UK use Chinooks, they carry not just a inf/RAF regt sect for a bit of protection while on the ground but more importantly 2 medical specialist doctors (trauma and resusitation), plus about 4 nurse/meddio types and undertake life sustaining treatment in flight.  It also means they can carry several casualties, not an unusual requirement with IEDs. If I was the Minister I'd be asking why this wasn't being done, but perhaps no one's got around to telling him it's the modern way.



Maybe that's why new-build Chinooks have passed first Pass in the acquisition timeline and we are waiting for the backlog of F models to clear production, so we can get our own.
 
Then we'll actually have some we can perhaps deploy for this role...
 

 
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gf0012-aust       4/3/2009 3:09:27 AM


Maybe that's why new-build Chinooks have passed first Pass in the acquisition timeline and we are waiting for the backlog of F models to clear production, so we can get our own.

 Then we'll actually have some we can perhaps deploy for this role...

 
there's certainly some noise about getting the chooks up there, but as to whether its going to get past a gun-shy Minister.......
live in hope that he actually does make at least one ballsy deicision in his tenure - and that he actually listens  to uniform advice rather than his own coterie of "hangers on"
it's not Defence uniforms or suits resisting...




 
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Volkodav       4/3/2009 3:27:29 AM
live in hope that he actually does make at least one ballsy deicision in his tenure - and that he actually listens  to uniform advice rather than his own coterie of "hangers on"
it's not Defence uniforms or suits resisting...
 
It has been said that Robert Ray was the last defence minister to have a reasonable working relationship with his department and that Fitzgibbon was told by both Nelson and Hill that the department could not be trusted.
 
As to the risk adverse policies with our current deployments, I cant help but wonder if the issues the UK has had with inquests into the death of service personnel on deployment has anything to do with it.
 
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neutralizer       4/3/2009 3:53:26 AM

 


are you even remotely capable of having dialogue without turning into some form of mealy mouthed  pissant?
if you knew the minister you'd know the problems we face.

I have a lot of time for your knowledge, but your constant digs at every opportunity wears a little thin, so for gods sake get over it, it's become tiresome.  its starting to make you look like a troll.

Oh dear I do hope I haven't upset someone, normally I only manage to upset total tosspots. But I digress. 
 
First remember it takes two to tango, heaping all the blame on the Minister (and I wouldn't doubt for a moment that some of his staff are a bit of a problem) is convenient but I'd suggest DoD's track record is less than entirely spotless and blameless, for openers procurement all too often looks like buggins turn by service on toys that may be less than relevant to a hardnosed and well thought out defence policy.  Of course the previous govt must take a large share of the blame for humouring Russell Offices not to mention some less than entirely well considered acts of their own. 
 
One of the charateristics of a democratic society is that the armed forces are under effective civilian control, it's only in wannabee military dictatorships that parts of the military get the notion that they alone know what is best for the nation's defence.
 
Perhaps it's even time to step back and wonder if the Great Australian Defence Experiment is due for review.  I refer of course to the business of having a CDF, CN, CA and CAF as big white chiefs each running their show, if you look around the world this is a somewhat unusual arrangement even if NZ has copied it.  Legally established collegiate arrangements do seem more usual.
 
I'm obviously out of date because I thought that there were a couple of Chinooks in Afg and hadn't noticed that they'd returned.  As I understand it the Chinook waiting list is a long one.
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Ummm, Neut.    4/3/2009 6:57:15 AM
"What's this thing about V/STOL carriers for Fleet Air Defence during the Falklands conflict?  Sooo inadequate, sensible Navys like US use large Conventional Carriers, they can launch aircraft with adequate capabilities like the F-4, the Buccaneer and the Gannet .  It also means that pissant little military dictatorships like Argentina wouldn't have even thought of invading British territory. If I was the Minister I would have asked why this wasn't being done, but perhaps no one got around to telling him it's the best way."
 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Sound familiar? It is of course ridiculous to blame the Royal Navy for the fact that they were equipped with inadequate carriers during the Falklands due to the Government of the United Kingdom retiring their CTOL carriers, a fact that cost hundreds of lives in the ensuing Argentine Airstrikes. It is equally ridiculous of you to blame the Australian military for not using Chinooks for medivac when they don't have enough of them to do so, because our 12 aircraft fleet was sold off to save money and eventually only replaced with 6 updated models during the 1990's (see link). My suggestion for you would be to know your facts before you critisise, because you've just made yourself look very silly.
 
Incidentally, I've just had the pleasure of being visited by an ex-British officer with recent service in Afghanistan and Iraq. From what he has told me about some of the stupid policy's of current British Army Commanders, like still emphasising training for mass armoured warfare and trying to apply it to COIN ops because "if you can fight in a big conventional conflict on the German plain you can fight anywhere", I'd call into question the notion that the British Army is inherantly more "sensible" than Australia's. Both forces have their problems and their share of d1ckheads in charge, but the important thing is that they remain two of the most professional forces in the world. If you were making a serious analysis you would look at the strengths and weaknesses of both and consider how they can learn from each other, but instead I'm pretty quickly coming to expect nothing but juvenile competitiveness instead.  
 
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gf0012-aust       4/3/2009 7:33:03 AM

Oh dear I do hope I haven't upset someone, normally I only manage to upset total tosspots. But I digress. 

 
mate you run the same song everytime you come in and do your normal drive by.  its old, its tiresome - and quite frankly it makes you look an absolute prat as it always reinforces that you just can't help yourself.  Your inability to control yourself  is just tedious - anger evaporated some years ago when it was apparent that you had some self proclaimed mission to always slag off at the way that we do business tactically, strategically or procurement wise.  

as I said, I respect the insight that you bring on a number of issues, but, again, chucking in  barbs everytime you comment  is just very very old.  we know you have an issue, we know you can't help yourself, we know that you get some self satisfaction at having a go - but seriously it's like listening to a broken record.  

so, the only tosspot in here is you because you just can't seem to move on and engage in debate or contribution without reverting to form.  take your chip and convert it into something useful.  I'm sure with all your profound experience that the DefMin would appreciate getting someone more aggressive than his current naval flunky.

 So, yes we get it.  You're superior, you don't like us and you want to hilight your veiled contempt at any opportune moment.  Now that we've got it (again) can you see if its possible to engage like an adult rather than continue on like a busted 78.

Hell, if we carried on like you on the UK board people would have our guts for garters.   

 
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Or if you can't ...   4/3/2009 7:36:56 AM




 So, yes we get it.  You're superior, you don't like us and you want to hilight your veiled contempt at any opportune moment.  Now that we've got it (again) can you see if its possible to engage like an adult rather than continue on like a busted 78.


 
... bugger off.
 
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gf0012-aust       4/3/2009 7:49:51 AM
First remember it takes two to tango, heaping all the blame on the Minister (and I wouldn't doubt for a moment that some of his staff are a bit of a problem) is convenient but I'd suggest DoD's track record is less than entirely spotless and blameless, for openers procurement all too often looks like buggins turn by service on toys that may be less than relevant to a hardnosed and well thought out defence policy.  Of course the previous govt must take a large share of the blame for humouring Russell Offices not to mention some less than entirely well considered acts of their own. 

One of the charateristics of a democratic society is that the armed forces are under effective civilian control, it's only in wannabee military dictatorships that parts of the military get the notion that they alone know what is best for the nation's defence.

Perhaps it's even time to step back and wonder if the Great Australian Defence Experiment is due for review.  I refer of course to the business of having a CDF, CN, CA and CAF as big white chiefs each running their show, if you look around the world this is a somewhat unusual arrangement even if NZ has copied it.  Legally established collegiate arrangements do seem more usual.

 
you are seriously out of touch about how procurement is done within the Australian Military - and the above comment shows that you actually don't have a clue as to how Kinnaird works.

btw - all the work I do is involved at the JOC level - I know you're speaking crap because I get to deal with it everyday. You'll be surprised to know that Labor (again) have this overwhelming desire to embrace UK profurement processes and yet we have UK Staff Officers advsing us to run screaming from that room - they think their own system is stuffed - in fact tyhe UK is currently providing procurement officers to look at how we run logistics and how we do Rapid Acquisition because they regard their model as busted.

If you knew anything about how projects and procurement is done here you'd know that no single entity has unilateral decision making except the Minister - and its the Minister who has elected to make some big ticket procurement decisions without even consulting the  uniforms or the suits.  You'd also know that in the 1st pass process that we have other divisions over sighting each step and that suits and uniforms from separate stakeholder areas have the right to veto.

So for all your bull about the uniforms being able to get stuff across the line sans civilian review is just unmitigated rubbish.

Please don't pretend to be knowledgeable about contemp australian  procurement processes when some of us are clearly first hand based to tell you that you're way off the planet.  You lose credibility straight away when its apparent that you aren't familiar of the checks and balances in place (and yes, there is a UK staff currently here looking at adopting some of those checks and balances in their own procurement processes) 
 
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