Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Australia Discussion Board
   Return to Topic Page
Subject: Another screwed up procurement process
Aussiegunneragain    2/14/2009 7:57:01 PM
Wedgie is seriously on the rocks now, apparently the new radar doesn't look like it wants to work. Why Defence can't learn our lesson that we just aren't big enough to pull off major bleeding edge technology projects without unacceptable risks to our defence capability and budget is beyond me. What would have been wrong with sticking the latest version of the E-2's radar on top of a 767 airframe, or some other similar COT/MOTS solution? --------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25052188-31477,00.html PROJECT Wedgetail, the RAAF's $3.8 billion hi-tech airborne surveillance and early warning system, is in deep trouble and may never achieve the performance levels expected by the air force. So fundamental are the problems surrounding Wedgetail that Defence has had to commission a top US laboratory to conduct an independent design and performance review of the aircraft's radar developed by US defence giant, Northrop Grumman. The Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Lincoln Laboratory is undertaking the review, assisted by a small team from Australia's Defence Science and Technology Organisation. Australia is the leading customer for the Wedgetail airborne early warning system that will see six modified Boeing 737-700 aircraft, mounted with a specially developed phased array radar, delivered to the RAAF under a contract originally signed in 1997. The worry for the Government is that, if the Wedgetail system can't meet the RAAF's requirements, it will become a procurement nightmare far worse than the $1billion Seasprite helicopter debacle finally cancelled last year. The Defence Materiel Organisation urgently sought an independent review by Lincoln Laboratory after the prime contractor, Boeing, had further significant problems integrating Wedgetail's multi-role electronically scanned array radar with other systems on the aircraft. Already running at least 38 months late, Project Wedgetail is designed to be the nerve centre of Australia's air defence system over the next generation. The Wedgetail's radar is designed to track hundreds of targets in the air and at sea simultaneously, including cruise missiles at a range of more than 400km. Senior defence sources say the problems with the radar go beyond simple target identification and software integration issues to the basic performance and geometry of the system, which sits on top of the 737's fuselage. The Lincoln Laboratory assessment is due to be completed by the end of March and will be followed by flight testing over northern Australia in May. Lincoln is a US government-funded research and development lab that works on cutting edge defence technologies, such as ballistic missile defence. Subject to further tests later this year, Boeing expects to deliver an initial 737 aircraft to the RAAF for training tasks in November with the first two planes achieving full capability by March next year. Parliamentary secretary for defence procurement Greg Combet said last night there was still a "long way to go and many hurdles to overcome" with Wedgetail's radar and integrated system performance. "The Wedgetail early warning and control aircraft are, by their very nature, extremely complex, given the range of cutting-edge radar technology and sensors that will be incorporated into each aircraft," Mr Combet told The Weekend Australian. Mr Combet said Boeing had not sought, nor had the commonwealth agreed to, any change in the Wedgetail contract prior to the completion of the review by Lincoln Laboratory and the operational evaluation. He said a "high-level summit" involving the commonwealth, Boeing and Northrop Grumman to determine the way ahead for the program was planned for later this year. Boeing and Northrop Grumman remain confident the performance of the Wedgetail system will easily exceed any existing airborne warning system.
 
Quote    Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5   NEXT
HERALD1357    Northrop Grumman screwed this up too?   2/14/2009 9:08:56 PM
Better check them out and see what's up. Thank's for the head's up.
 
Herald
 
Quote    Reply

Arty Farty       2/14/2009 11:31:37 PM
OTS? Quite a few countries operate the E-2s as their only AEW, new ones are coming out pretty soon (inflight refuel too). There's also an Israeli radar based on a long range business jet.
 
Quote    Reply

Aussiegunneragain       2/14/2009 11:49:53 PM

OTS? Quite a few countries operate the E-2s as their only AEW, new ones are coming out pretty soon (inflight refuel too). There's also an Israeli radar based on a long range business jet.
Just buying an E-2 would be an option but the airframe is a bit small and range is an important consideration for Australia with the distances in our AO. Therefore tacking an existing, proven radar like the E-2's onto a bigger airframe would probably be a better bet for us. Anyway, it was just an example of something we could have done that would have been perfectly acceptable for our purposes without the risks of being at the bleeding edge.

 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust       2/15/2009 12:12:52 AM

Better check them out and see what's up. Thank's for the head's up.

Herald

There are 4 other countries involved with their own versions of wedgetail (using wedgetail as the baseline) - no other 
country is reporting concerns to date.  some of this is colour and movement.

although we can always look at a japanese solution... they're keen enough to start changing their military footprint with us and 
are keen to have a closer military and technology relationship.

 


 
Quote    Reply

Aussiegunneragain    GF   2/15/2009 3:20:30 AM

There are 4 other countries involved with their own versions of wedgetail (using wedgetail as the baseline) - no other 
country is reporting concerns to date.  some of this is colour and movement.
Of course they haven't reported anything yet it was only in our papers on Friday and we are the lead nation. I see no reason not to believe it. The program was already behind schedule and Defence seem to manage to fuck up many of their other major high technology projects (and some not so high technology, like slapping a new donk in and a bit of applique on the M-113's).
The ongoing incompetence in the procurement process shits me to tears. Apart from denying the ADF the gear that they need when they need it and being a Godawful waste of money, it undermines the credibility of Defence when it is seeking additional resources. When Defence asks for more money it gives the beanies the very legitimate argument that the DOD should bugger off until they have learned to stop wasting the money that they are already being given. Whether or not it is fair it also undermines the credibility of the ADF as the best stakeholder to provide advice on equipment procurement. I was debating with collegues (some of whom were professionally familiar with Defence procurement processes) the other day who were convinced that the MBT purchase was a waste of money. I suggested to them that the ADF probably knows what they need to do their job and they were able to respond with a list of screwed up procurement decisions. I was able to point them to an article outlining the utility of MBT's in Canadian hands in Afghanistan in this instance, but its a shame when the ADF has lost so much credibility due to incompetence that people doubt the advice that they give .
 
Basically Defence needs to pull its socks up WRT procurement and in particular get its risk management right (i.e. loose the friggin propensity to seek to gold plate everything), especially now that the Government is going to be looking far less favourably on Defence spending than the previous one was.
 
Quote    Reply

Volkodav       2/15/2009 5:18:37 AM
Nothing wrong with gold plating and when you are talking about a small but wealthy nation like Australia it sort of makes sense as quality can make up for a deficit of quantity.
 
The gold plating however should be limited to buffing up MOTS options, i.e. upspecing our gear to the level the parent service would have had they the time and the money to do so. 
 
Example I can think of would be TUSK for our Abrams, perhaps having gone for M1A2 for our baseline instead of M1A1 AIM.  Going for a Super Burke instead of deciding between the Baby Burke and the F100. etc. etc.
 
I am sure you can all think of other examples.
 
The other thing would be to do as much production and support in Australia as possible there by building and maintaining the industrial capacity the ADF needs our industry to have.
 
Quote    Reply

Aussiegunneragain    Volkodav   2/15/2009 7:10:28 AM

Nothing wrong with gold plating and when you are talking about a small but wealthy nation like Australia it sort of makes sense as quality can make up for a deficit of quantity.

 The gold plating however should be limited to buffing up MOTS options, i.e. upspecing our gear to the level the parent service would have had they the time and the money to do so. 
 
Example I can think of would be TUSK for our Abrams, perhaps having gone for M1A2 for our baseline instead of M1A1 AIM.  Going for a Super Burke instead of deciding between the Baby Burke and the F100. etc. etc.
 
I am sure you can all think of other examples.

 The other thing would be to do as much production and support in Australia as possible there by building and maintaining the industrial capacity the ADF needs our industry to have.

Adding existing technology to a platform where the match has already been proven elsewhere, such as with TUSK, to  isn't the type of gold plating that I'm worried about. Its when we unnecessarily risk the timely and economical introduction of a vital capability by tying it to a new technology that is unique to Australia, or even where there is an unproven match between existing technologies, where things go horribly wrong. Examples of such screw ups include the completely new combat system for the Collins when existing technologies would have done, the Popeyes for the F-111's, the flight control and combat system for the Sea Sprites, the interim mods to the FFG's to try and turn them into area air defence ships, this latest debacle with the Wedgies and what may have happenned if the Navy had got its way and we had gone with the Baby Burke. For that matter I don't know why Trigat wouldn't have done nicely for the ARH, rather integrating Hellfires (luckily that seems to have to come off ok).
Some of these decisions are due to penny pinching but others are due to the ADF going for the bleeding edge technology when existing technologies would do. The ADF can't do anything about the former problem but it can adopt a policy of avoiding bleeding edge or unique to Australia technologies unless absolutely necessary (beefing up the Kockums into the longer range Collins is an example of where this was necessary, the Wedgetails is an example of where it wasn't). If a war comes along a capability that is 80% of what the ADF might have desired is better than one that is 100% but hasn't arrived yet (if at all), because technological problems delayed it. Its also not worth it if a cost blow out means that the ADF have to miss out on some other vital capability. The Yanks have the money and the redundancy for such adventures, we don't, and the sooner the ADF get this ingrained into their heads the better.  

 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust       2/15/2009 4:04:38 PM
major projects can't do anything unless the Minister OK's it.  ADF and DMO act at the ministers (and the NSC's)  direction).

 
 
Quote    Reply

DropBear       2/15/2009 10:30:00 PM
 
I always thought a combined buy of E-767's with the JASDF would have been the best option.
 
A sound radar with a larger longer ranging airframe. In service...NOW.
 
Sigh.
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

Aussiegunneragain    Hear, Hear.    2/16/2009 2:32:48 AM

 

I always thought a combined buy of E-767's with the JASDF would have been the best option.
 
A sound radar with a larger longer ranging airframe. In service...NOW.

 Sigh.

 


 
Quote    Reply
1 2 3 4 5   NEXT



 Latest
 News
 
 Most
 Read
 
 Most
 Commented
 Hot
 Topics