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Subject: Does the RAN have a need for a Corvette?
hairy man    11/17/2008 6:31:29 PM
Does the RAN have a requirement for a Corvette type vessel? The one on the Austal website, which carries a helicopter and is equipped for ASW looks promising, although I would prefer it to be larger and better armed.
 
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gf0012-aust       11/22/2008 10:20:22 PM
The fundamental problem with policing the Straits is one of ROE's including hot pursuit.  The technology solutions already exist.
 
Political will and intent is the killer here.
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Herald   11/23/2008 5:11:02 AM
We don't need a WW2 sized threat to justify the sorts of ships that I am talking about. We just need one nation that we are having a disagreement over some islands to our north who happens to have 3 or 4 reasonably modern DE subs. We have a couple of those and all that they would have to do is to SAY that they are going to hit Aussie coastal shipping and they would tie up half the ships that we can currently deploy. We can't afford that so we need a cheaper, more numerous solution.
 
As for the plausibility of PAR's on Corvettes LM didn't design the SPY-1K not to work. I know that using it or a smaller CEAFAR on a Corvette would necessitate using smaller missiles, but I'd guess that that ESSM can tackle a brace of sub launched missiles coming at a convoy. Sea skimmers wouldn't be detected by radar much beyond the ESSM's range anyway so the shorter range probably wouldn't matter. Having a stealthy corvette wouldn't help in that situation either as the targets are the ships that it is escorting which have a RCS the size of a well, bulk freighter.
 
As for pirates there was an article in the Australian about those today. Apparently we have too small a merchant fleet to be too bothered by them. Also I'm pretty sure that most of the merchant ships routed to Australia don't pass through the worst areas like the Gulf of Aden or the Straits of Malacca. It isn't one of our defence priorities.
 
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HERALD1357       11/23/2008 5:59:13 AM

We don't need a WW2 sized threat to justify the sorts of ships that I am talking about. We just need one nation that we are having a disagreement over some islands to our north who happens to have 3 or 4 reasonably modern DE subs. We have a couple of those and all that they would have to do is to SAY that they are going to hit Aussie coastal shipping and they would tie up half the ships that we can currently deploy. We can't afford that so we need a cheaper, more numerous solution.

 

As for the plausibility of PAR's on Corvettes LM didn't design the SPY-1K not to work. I know that using it or a smaller CEAFAR on a Corvette would necessitate using smaller missiles, but I'd guess that that ESSM can tackle a brace of sub launched missiles coming at a convoy. Sea skimmers wouldn't be detected by radar much beyond the ESSM's range anyway so the shorter range probably wouldn't matter. Having a stealthy corvette wouldn't help in that situation either as the targets are the ships that it is escorting which have a RCS the size of a well, bulk freighter.

 

As for pirates there was an article in the Australian about those today. Apparently we have too small a merchant fleet to be too bothered by them. Also I'm pretty sure that most of the merchant ships routed to Australia don't pass through the worst areas like the Gulf of Aden or the Straits of Malacca. It isn't one of our defence priorities.

1. Fisheries protection and smuggling is.
2. ESSM is a fairly big and robust rocket. It actually outperforms ASTER.........significantly. it needs a fairly hefty radar to make full use of its potential. The rockets a small corvette might carry are more akin to RAM or Barak. 
3. I am of the opinion that an OPV that operates drones and a helo isd a significantly better vesserl for the money you spend than a overglorifed speedboat armed with SAMs and an auto-cannon for littoral warfare-however such an OPV misses the enture point of the unglamorousn low end role that navies have to perform daily. Navies are the world's equivalent of the police upon the water. Whether it is chasing illegal whalers and fishers in your waters, stopping smugglerrs trying to evade your customs, or just aiding a conked out freighter, you don't spend $1 B Aus or $1B US on a patrol and marine enforcement frigate with a stop the PLAN combat suite, when a $ 5 M steel tub with an auto cannon and an eager boarding party full of marines and sailors armed with automatic weapons is sufficient.   
 
Match the resources to the mission. I also always find it interesting and amusing that the RAN is historically pro-active instead of reactive to the bluster and threats Australia's neighbors made.
  
Herald

 
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gf0012-aust       11/23/2008 3:02:41 PM
I also always find it interesting and amusing that the RAN is historically pro-active instead of reactive to the bluster and threats Australia's neighbors made.
there's an extra irony in the fact that our two most vocal neighbours also ask RAN and AUSG for assistance on developing their Navies.  They want greenwater development/definition expertise, want some of our vessels - and want to buy our fleet logistics (software) solutions.
 
there's a message in there somewhere... :)
 
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Scooterboy    Hi long time reader first time poster   11/24/2008 2:46:06 AM
Hi guys, I know this is a little off the Corvette question, but along similar lines.I have always thought the Danish 'Absalon' class was an interesting design. Mix of command support, landing and transport, and I think fairly well armed. 5" gun up VLS with up too 36 ESSM, 2 CIWS, 6 .50 cals, 8-16 Harpoons, MU90 torps and can carry two NH 90 sized helo's, and/or I assume UAV's.
Pair one of these up with an AWD , pretty potent first response for anything serious local ( flare up in East Timor, cyclone/tsunamis response) and with a LPH with 6-8  F35B's a potent force.
 
Feel free to pick it apart, but would these with CEFAR/CEAMOUNT , and SPY-1F  , be a reasonable replacement for either ANZACS or Adelaide classes or even Manoora/Tobruk?

 
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Aussiegunneragain       11/25/2008 2:58:49 AM




We don't need a WW2 sized threat to justify the sorts of ships that I am talking about. We just need one nation that we are having a disagreement over some islands to our north who happens to have 3 or 4 reasonably modern DE subs. We have a couple of those and all that they would have to do is to SAY that they are going to hit Aussie coastal shipping and they would tie up half the ships that we can currently deploy. We can't afford that so we need a cheaper, more numerous solution.

As for the plausibility of PAR's on Corvettes LM didn't design the SPY-1K not to work. I know that using it or a smaller CEAFAR on a Corvette would necessitate using smaller missiles, but I'd guess that that ESSM can tackle a brace of sub launched missiles coming at a convoy. Sea skimmers wouldn't be detected by radar much beyond the ESSM's range anyway so the shorter range probably wouldn't matter. Having a stealthy corvette wouldn't help in that situation either as the targets are the ships that it is escorting which have a RCS the size of a well, bulk freighter.

As for pirates there was an article in the Australian about those today. Apparently we have too small a merchant fleet to be too bothered by them. Also I'm pretty sure that most of the merchant ships routed to Australia don't pass through the worst areas like the Gulf of Aden or the Straits of Malacca. It isn't one of our defence priorities.




1. Fisheries protection and smuggling is.
 
Our patrol boat fleet has that pretty much covered up north. OPV's like NZ has bought  might be useful for policing the Southern Ocean against toothfishermen and the like, but I'm not sure that the problem is big enough to justify it.
2. ESSM is a fairly big and robust rocket. It actually outperforms ASTER.........significantly. it needs a fairly hefty radar to make full use of its potential. The rockets a small corvette might carry are more akin to RAM or Barak. 
 
As I have already pointed out LM has already designed a corvette-sized AEGIS.  They didn't do it with RAM or Barak in mind. A 1500 tonne hull could easily handle a couple of 8 packs of ESSM, which would suffice for our purposes. The 1000 tonne Thai Ratanakosin Class Corvette carries the  24 Aspide which is Sparrow-based so it is well and truely do-able.  
Match the resources to the mission. I also always find it interesting and amusing that the RAN is historically pro-active instead of reactive to the bluster and threats Australia's neighbors made.
 
The RAN's most important mission is to be able to defend Australia's interests against credible threat's in the case of war. Being pro-active under those circumstances isn't just a quaint characteristic of RAN brass and the DOD, it is a good idea. It would take far longer for us to build a class of Corvettes that can undertake this sort of mission than it would for Indonesia to buy a dozen sub launched Exocets for their 209's and whatever sub-launched missile fits into the Kilo's tubes. Quite apart from that our Navy can't currently adequately defend itself against TNI's missile armed FAC in the littorals. So much for proactivity.


  


Herald






 
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Volkodav    From Navantia   11/25/2008 6:35:15 AM

Press here for details


Volkodav    From Navantia   11/25/2008 6:36:20 AM

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Volkodav    From Navantia   11/25/2008 6:37:16 AM
link
 
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HERALD1357       11/25/2008 7:02:27 AM


We don't need a WW2 sized threat to justify the sorts of ships that I am talking about. We just need one nation that we are having a disagreement over some islands to our north who happens to have 3 or 4 reasonably modern DE subs. We have a couple of those and all that they would have to do is to SAY that they are going to hit Aussie coastal shipping and they would tie up half the ships that we can currently deploy. We can't afford that so we need a cheaper, more numerous solution.


As for the plausibility of PAR's on Corvettes LM didn't design the SPY-1K not to work. I know that using it or a smaller CEAFAR on a Corvette would necessitate using smaller missiles, but I'd guess that that ESSM can tackle a brace of sub launched missiles coming at a convoy. Sea skimmers wouldn't be detected by radar much beyond the ESSM's range anyway so the shorter range probably wouldn't matter. Having a stealthy corvette wouldn't help in that situation either as the targets are the ships that it is escorting which have a RCS the size of a well, bulk freighter.


As for pirates there was an article in the Australian about those today. Apparently we have too small a merchant fleet to be too bothered by them. Also I'm pretty sure that most of the merchant ships routed to Australia don't pass through the worst areas like the Gulf of Aden or the Straits of Malacca. It isn't one of our defence priorities.










1. Fisheries protection and smuggling is.



Our patrol boat fleet has that pretty much covered up north. OPV's like NZ has bought  might be useful for policing the Southern Ocean against toothfishermen and the like, but I'm not sure that the problem is big enough to justify it.

Counterargument-your OPVs are too short-enduranced and under-gunned to perform the mission described in your AO. You need the the blue water hull capability to operate as well as the enforcement tools..One of those tools is the helo and the boat party.

2. ESSM is a fairly big and robust rocket. It actually outperforms ASTER.........significantly. it needs a fairly hefty radar to make full use of its potential. The rockets a small corvette might carry are more akin to RAM or Barak. 


As I have already pointed out LM has already designed a corvette-sized AEGIS.  They didn't do it with RAM or Barak in mind. A 1500 tonne hull could easily handle a couple of 8 packs of ESSM, which would suffice for our purposes. The 1000 tonne Thai Ratanakosin Class Corvette carries the  24 Aspide which is Sparrow-based so it is well and truely do-able.  

Counterargument.

Aspide Mk1/Mk2

Specifications

Manafacturer

Selenia

Date Deployed

1987

Range
 
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